Short term fix needed. Any suggestions?

[TheMitchells]

My elderly parents live in our bungalow with an old 2 ring system (one on all the time for most things and one for night, only for the immersion to hwc and night storage heaters).  On Wed 10th july, they rang to say that they had no hot water or heating in their bungalow.  I rang Octopus and an engineer came later that day and removed the old meter, installing a new Smart meter.  As there is a daytime ring and a night time ring (hot water and heating) in the bungalow, we did not know if it had fixed the problem but the following day, it all worked – Hurray!

 However, on Monday 15^th July, Mum rang and said the heating and water had gone off again.  We contacted Octopus and I was told someone would contact me regarding this.  That evening, someone did ring and we went through some questions that had been emailed to mum.  They said they'd 'reset or something' but the following day, it was all still off and I rang Octopus again.  I was assured someone would get in touch but no one did; however, everything worked on Wednesday morning. 

Sunday 21^st July, Mum rang.  Once again, the heating and hot water was off.  I tried ringing Octopus but of course, no one works Sunday, and, as it was not a complete emergency (they did have daytime electricity, just no way of heating the water), I had to wait till Monday to contact them to report the fault.  Details were taken and I was told it would be sorted. 

 Long story short - eventually after many calls and two very distressed parents, Octopus sent an engineer on Saturday who replaced the meter again. Sunday, all was fine. But today, its all gone off (it may have gone off overnight sunday but Mum wasnt sure).

So what to do??  I cant believe it is the meter again, unless it is not able to work with their two rings??  why does it work for a couple of days then go off?? 

We are getting quotes for an ashp and radiators, when hopefully the system can be made to work with the Smart Meter - the wiring and fuseboxes were done before we bought it in 2017 so all fairly new.  but till we can get the system put in (hopefully as soon as possible), what can we do?? 

Should i pester Octopus and see what they can do?

OH suggested a short term fix of connecting the immersion to the daytime ring and asking them to turn it on a couple of hours each night.  They can do without heating luckily for a while. 

I'd be very grateful for suggestions.

[ProDave]

First (no criticism meant) for a fault like this call an ELECTRICIAN not your energy supplier.  Let him diagnose exactly what is wrong.  Calling the supplier assumes you think the problem is with the dual tariff metering system.  It might be, it might not be.

 

As you have found, the "solution" by the suppliers seems to be replace the old dual rate meter with a smart meter.  But frankly I hear so many issues with getting off peak supplies to work with smart meters, I doubt the competence of many of the supply companies to set them up properly.

 

At this time of year you should not need heating, so hot water is the immediate concern.  In all but the most basic designs of off peak hot water heating there is a means to turn on a daytime immersion heater to heat the hot water even if the off peak supply is not coming on.

 

We need to know more about what was "reset"  during these visits.  Hot water heating up first night of off peak then not heating up the next night, is often a failed immersion heater thermostat.  Again nothing for your supplier but something an electrician can test and repair.

 

You should NOT be needing to change the heating system to "work with the smart meter"

 

Get on the blower to an electrician, let him test and work out what has gone wrong with what you have.

[joe90]

+1 with @ProDave, bloody smart meters, I would not have one. They should be called dumb meters not smart 🤷‍♂️

[TheMitchells]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

First (no criticism meant) for a fault like this call an ELECTRICIAN not your energy supplier.  Let him diagnose exactly what is wrong.  Calling the supplier assumes you think the problem is with the dual tariff metering system.  It might be, it might not be.

 

As you have found, the "solution" by the suppliers seems to be replace the old dual rate meter with a smart meter.  But frankly I hear so many issues with getting off peak supplies to work with smart meters, I doubt the competence of many of the supply companies to set them up properly.

 

At this time of year you should not need heating, so hot water is the immediate concern.  In all but the most basic designs of off peak hot water heating there is a means to turn on a daytime immersion heater to heat the hot water even if the off peak supply is not coming on.

 

We need to know more about what was "reset"  during these visits.  Hot water heating up first night of off peak then not heating up the next night, is often a failed immersion heater thermostat.  Again nothing for your supplier but something an electrician can test and repair.

 

You should NOT be needing to change the heating system to "work with the smart meter"

 

Get on the blower to an electrician, let him test and work out what has gone wrong with what you have.

When this happened initially, i did contact our electrician and he said it was an issue with the meter so hence dealing with octopus.  I am happy to get him back out but as it is both the immersion and the one small night storage heater that go off together, we know it is not one or the other but the whole night ring.  I feel that the Octopus 'engineers' have no idea about old systems and how to integrate them to their meters.  ideally we would go back to a simple mechanical meter, if possible.  But as we are going to ashp and maybe pv soon, it probably is best to keep the smart meter.  (happy to be corrrected on that)

Re the immersion, no, it is only on a night ring and we cannot operate it during the day, unless we get an electrician to connect the two back at the fusebox. but then it would be on all the time unless my parents switch it off (this is likely to be the short term solution). 

 

We need to replace the whole heating/hot water system as it is that very old warm air central unit that is breaking down and I am looking to remove, once an asbestos person tests and removes it. (thats our other post on asbestos). And add ashp.  Hoepfully then, it can all be changed to a standard set up, rather than the unusual one we have!  

 

[TheMitchells]

Can i ask Octopus to remove the Smart meter and replace it with a dual rate meter?? 

[TheMitchells]

Well, Octopus are saying we have to get an electrician to test everything and see if it is all working.  So i am going down that route first. I just hope they can check things during the day when there is no power to that circuit.... 

hubby plans to go over tomorrow evening and stay the night so he can test the incoming cable from the meter himself.  unfortunately he can't go tonight.  he seems to think the electrician can do a 'dead test' on the night circuit. Its only the night storage and immersion on there.

[joe90]

33 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

Can i ask Octopus to remove the Smart meter and replace it with a dual rate meter?? 

I doubt it but they do have a reputation for very good customer service so try emailing the CEO, Greg jackson,  greg@octopus.energy   
and how your elderly parents are not coping. 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Yeah, I think this is a problem with modern meters - they don't seem to support the old economy seven thing well or at all.

 

I think I would get the electrician back to wire the off peak to the standard supply and install one or more timeswitches for the immersion and storage heater.

 

That way you'll be future proof and you don't have to bang your head against the wall trying to get Octopus to retrace their steps.

 

If they have OK internet, I might make those timeswitches Heatmiser ones and add a controller box so you can control them with a mobile app - but you may think that's a step/expense too far.

 

Edited July 30 by Alan Ambrose

[TheMitchells]

6 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Yeah, I think this is a problem with modern meters - they don't seem to support the old economy seven thing well or at all.

 

I think I would get the electrician back to wire the off peak to the standard supply and install one or more timeswitches for the immersion and storage heater.

 

That way you'll be future proof and you don't have to bang your head against the wall trying to get Octopus to retrace their steps.

 

If they have OK internet, I might make those timeswitches Heatmiser ones and add a controller box so you can control them with a mobile app - but you may think that's a step/expense too far.

 

that sounds like a good idea and it would mean i could control things remotely for them.  I shall suggest that to the electrician when he returns my call.  he's an old school sort so hopefully can understand what they currently have. 😁

[TheMitchells]

32 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I doubt it but they do have a reputation for very good customer service so try emailing the CEO, Greg jackson,  greg@octopus.energy   
and how your elderly parents are not coping. 

 

Tried that last week as I too heard they were good at customer service but our experience was awful!  Especially when the parents were logged as vulnerable.  Several days with no one calling back, even when they said they would.  I was ringing daily but it took till Friday evening for someone to actually take control of this (from initial call on Monday morning) and get things moving.  I like Octopus but they did not do a good job dealing withthis.  Even if it turns out not to be their meter causing the problem; they should have contacted us sooner. But i guess all companies can drop the ball occasionally.  🤔 

[Dave Jones]

agree with others get a sparky round.

[SteamyTea]

I had a smart meter fitted almost a year ago, within 24 hours the communication hub went AWOL. The communication module is separate to the smart meter, it is attached to the top.

I have E7 and in the past the radio signal did not always reset the meter, but that was very rare (maybe 3 times in 20 years). Smart meters don't use the old radio signal, but have a combination of an internal clock, a neighbouring communication hub clock, and a text message time signal.

Took a while to get it sorted (because EDF are (expletive deleted)), but not had a problem since.

 

All my problems have been down to EDF having hopeless internal systems to deal with problems.

The latest one has been sending out bills that seemingly do not relate to meter readings. This happens if you send in a manual reading, it generates a second bill, but does not cancel the previous one.

And their letters can take over 10 days to reach the customer, so the 'pay within 14 days' is often received after the threatening letter.

Going to be speaking to them again tonight, shall get it escalated and hopefully another 50 quid off my bill.

[Dave Jones]

have to love the french

[ProDave]

You have to admire the British who have a habit of taking something that works ?E7 / E10) and replaces it with something unreliable and complicated to the point the people in charge of the network don't understand it (smart meters)

 

My understanding is quite apart from the simple task of just getting remote readings from a smart meter, the thing they struggle with is turning on the off peak circuits, so they just come on when it is on the cheap rate.

[MikeSharp01]

Does the dual ring system not need to switch the power to the second ring so there must be a contactor or some such controlled from the meter not sure if a smart meter has an output for this so not sure how it works the once then never again! Maybe I missed something though it is beer o'clock.

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Does the dual ring system not need to switch the power to the second ring so there must be a contactor or some such controlled from the meter not sure if a smart meter has an output for this so not sure how it works the once then never again! Maybe I missed something though it is beer o'clock.

It has two wires in, 4 out.

Well mine does.  So no new consumer unit/s were needed.

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

people in charge of the network don't understand it (smart meters)

I think it is more the billing companies, rather than the DNOs who have the problems. But yes, we have (expletive deleted)ed up big time by having too many 'energy' companies, each with different systems.

35 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

have to love the french

Years since you voted for me to leave the European Union, still waiting for you to deliver a world class energy system by tacking back control.

By using a French state owned supplier, I am still getting European money rather than filtching it off hard working British families.

Edited July 30 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

51 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Does the dual ring system not need to switch the power to the second ring so there must be a contactor or some such controlled from the meter not sure if a smart meter has an output for this so not sure how it works the once then never again! Maybe I missed something though it is beer o'clock.

It needs to be a "5 terminal" meter.  L and N in.  Permanent L, N and switched off peak L out.

 

Just like the old off peak meters have been for 40 0dd years.  (okay it took them a while to put it all in one box, previously the meter and the time clock / switch were separate boxes)

 

I have even read of ridiculous stories of the off peak output turning on and off, but not at the same time as the rate changes.

[TheMitchells]

Plan now is to get an electrician round to connect the night circuit to the day one, so the poor Smart Meter only has one supply to worry about.  And we can add the time switches as suggested by Alan Ambrose.  Best he can do is Monday though 😒.

 

Will i need to get Octopus to turn anything off?  Or can he do it with the supply still on?  And if they need to turn off the supply, can they do it remotely or do they need to come at the same time?

 

[joe90]

41 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

Will i need to get Octopus to turn anything off? 

Depends if the meter has an isolation switch, some do some don’t. However you could always pull the main fuse and tell Octopus you did this because their smart meter is not working properly. 

[SteamyTea]

Most electricians can change a consumer unit with pulling the main fuse.

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Shouldn't need to change the CU I think, and can usually work either with the isolator between meter and CU (Octopus may likely have put one of these in), just switching the main CU switch and being careful, or pulling the DNO fuse as said.

 

Last bit of electrical work I has done (on a landlords supply) the electrician worked with the 3P CU all live even though I told him I would rather he isolated it entirely and everyone would have to live without the passenger lift for an hour or two.

[TheMitchells]

2 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Shouldn't need to change the CU I think, and can usually work either with the isolator between meter and CU (Octopus may likely have put one of these in), just switching the main CU switch and being careful, or pulling the DNO fuse as said.

 

Last bit of electrical work I has done (on a landlords supply) the electrician worked with the 3P CU all live even though I told him I would rather he isolated it entirely and everyone would have to live without the passenger lift for an hour or two.

will get some photo's tomorrow of both consumer units and meter box so hopefully can see.  Hubby seems to think there is no main switch/isolator in the meter cupboard.  

[SteamyTea]

51 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

will get some photo's tomorrow

You may need to redact some identification on it, though I am not sure how useful an MPan is to scrotes.

[TheMitchells]

now we are very confused🤔.  Hubby went over and stayed at the property, checking the Night suppy cable at various times.  there was no power in the cable at 10pm nor 1.21am . However, when tested at 2.53am there was power! 😃 When fitted, the Octopus fitter said night period started at 1am.  So thats strange it had not been on earlier.  However, even stranger was around 9am when Mum rang to say they still had no hot water or heating - though we know the power was getting through at 2.53am. 😢  So is it a problem with the night circuit?  We have someone coming on Monday to dead test.  I am also going to ask him to connect the two units  to the daytime supply and we'll just add timers where needed.  Hubby came home at 3am so we dont know if it stayed on or turned straight off.  I shall maybe stay there tonight and check it throughout the night.

[ProDave]

What are you using to tell you that the off peak circuits are "on"