Octopus Zero Bills

[Little_Miss_Tidy]

Has anyone looked into this from a self-build perspective?  I've just had a chat with them, and she says no self-builders have actually signed up yet (but they would accept them).  I suspect there's a reason for that!  Is it just that there are better tariffs out there, such that you can make an overall profit on your electricity if you get it right?  I'm quite liking the 5 or 10 year guarantee aspect of it - other tariffs come and go, whereas this apparently offers a good degree of certainty.

[JohnMo]

If it's all true, and matches the blurb maybe a good option. We generated next to nothing the last few days, really cloudy so everything was imported, really should have a surplus this time of year. But you can't do much with the weather, unless you have some sort of cost guarantee.

[IanR]

37 minutes ago, Little_Miss_Tidy said:

Has anyone looked into this from a self-build perspective? 

 

I wasn't aware of it previously, so thanks for the reference. Looks initially aimed at new builds via a developer, ie. they only want to speak to companies.

 

I'm already built, but the comments suggest they will consider non-new houses in the future and the video mentions refurbs up to the required spec being allowed. It also mentions 10 years free bills on the video, contradicting the 5 years in the text.

 

 

 

I've contacted them via my company, to see if I can "refurb" my self-build up to the spec they are after.

Edited July 11 by IanR

[TheMitchells]

Very interesting.  we had a smart meter installed yesterday and are planning PV, ASHP and Battery for my renovation of a bungalow.  I'm with Octopus so I may have to have a word.  Thanks for the info.

[Little_Miss_Tidy]

13 minutes ago, IanR said:

Looks initially aimed at new builds via a developer, ie. they only want to speak to companies.

Yes, the website does look like that - but I emailed to ask if self-builders were eligible and got a very enthusiastic reply and she set up a call with me to discuss it further (which we did this morning).  So, I can confirm they're definitely happy to talk to self-builders!

 

15 minutes ago, IanR said:

It also mentions 10 years free bills on the video, contradicting the 5 years in the text.

She said it's changing from 5 to 10 years, but was a bit hazy on the details.  (I can't help wondering what the catch is, but then I'm naturally very cynical!)

[G and J]

1 hour ago, Little_Miss_Tidy said:

(I can't help wondering what the catch is

To quote the Octopus site:

 

Installation services for hardware including heat pumps, solar PV, batteries and metering

 

So it looks to me like the catch might be a big capital cost upfront and doing as you are told in terms of what’s fitted where.  Are you going to register and get details?  @Little_Miss_Tidy If so I’ll hold off to see what you find.  
 

(PS if doing it a second time constitutes ‘serial’ then we are soon to be serial self builders.)

[Little_Miss_Tidy]

34 minutes ago, G and J said:

Installation services for hardware including heat pumps, solar PV, batteries and metering

 

So it looks to me like the catch might be a big capital cost upfront and doing as you are told in terms of what’s fitted where.  Are you going to register and get details?  @Little_Miss_Tidy If so I’ll hold off to see what you find.  

Well, we were going to install PV, battery and heat pump anyway, so it's just a question of whether their requirements are any more expensive than we would otherwise have chosen.  She showed me some powerpoint slides this morning (and was going to send me a copy, but hasn't yet) - they restrict you to 5 brands of battery, 2 brands of heat pump (but you can ignore that and "just" put more PV on the roof instead), and I think it was 3 brands of EV charger (which only applies if you want to take advantage of their EV charging tariff).  It'll be a while before our plans are advanced enough to go through the full registration process, but when she sends me the slides I'll ask if I can share them here.

 

38 minutes ago, G and J said:

(PS if doing it a second time constitutes ‘serial’ then we are soon to be serial self builders.)

Haha yes - I don't think the second time counts as serial but it's definitely catching!

[G and J]

1 hour ago, Little_Miss_Tidy said:

It'll be a while before our plans are advanced enough to go through the full registration process

In that case it’d better get registering….

 

So, first things first, I tell em my details (only marginally pretending to be a volume housing developer…) and the first thing that happens is that I get an email back:

 

Hi Geoff,   Thanks for your interest in Octopus Zero Bills.   As we speak, we're working with housing developers and providers just like you to make Zero Bills the new standard.    For newbuilds kitted out with solar PV, electric heating, and battery storage, we'll optimise the devices using our Kraken tech platform to offer zero energy bills for at least 5 years, guaranteed.    Ready to begin the accreditation process?  Complete the template with data for your portfolio/pipeline and return it to this email. We'll have one of our analysts take a look and let you know promptly whether your homes are eligible for Zero Bills.    Please note that, as a general rule, the total annual solar generation on the homes must exceed the total annual consumption for the home in order to qualify. This includes heating and hot water according to your SAP report for each plot or house type. (You can read more FAQs here.)

Download Template

Want to chat before you submit data?  Respond to this email with questions or your availability for a call and we'll walk you through the process.   Thanks,   Octopus Energy

So the first catch is that we have to use their control system (they decide when we are warm enough? Hmmmmm….), and the second is that the Solar pv requirement isn’t in terms of the size of installation but the actual kWh generated vs used - that feels dangerous to me.  But I’ll plod on and keep posting.

 

[joe90]

2 hours ago, G and J said:

So the first catch is that we have to use their control system (they decide when we are warm enough?

From the customers questions….

“total electricity allowance is approx double the expected usage “

 

 

 

Edited July 11 by joe90

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, G and J said:

the total annual solar generation on the homes must exceed the total annual consumption for the home in order to qualify. This includes heating and hot water according to your SAP report for each plot or house type.

That's a lot of solar, or passivhaus and still quite a lot of solar. Good advertising but not many will be able to meet the requirements - big roof also needed.

[G and J]

34 minutes ago, joe90 said:

From the customers questions….

“total electricity allowance is approx double the expected usage “

 

 

 

Methinks this one sounds benign…… but…..

 

10 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

That's a lot of solar, or passivhaus and still quite a lot of solar. Good advertising but not many will be able to meet the requirements - big roof also needed.

Methinks this one sounds like an:

 

“I’m sorry 😢 Mr Gullablecustomer, your usage exceeded your generation by 0.17kWh in the last 12 months.   Sadly that means you no longer qualify for zero energy bills.  Please settle the retrospective £132.54 pcm bill for the last 12 months within 7 days or face recovery action.  Have a nice day (we know we will)”

 

😞 

[SteamyTea]

To me, it seems to be just a net billing system (as long as the exports are greater than the imports).

Probably be pulled from the market as I suspect that Octopus are just testing the market.  For them it is very cheap market research, the customer is doing a lot of the work.

[G and J]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

To me, it seems to be just a net billing system (as long as the exports are greater than the imports).

Probably be pulled from the market as I suspect that Octopus are just testing the market.  For them it is very cheap market research, the customer is doing a lot of the work.

Maybe, but maybe it’s craftier than that.

 

Mass developer hardly increases their costs as they were going to fit the stuff anyway, but can advertise zero bills houses.  The adverts are up on billboards in Suffolk.    Owners get zero bills till usage history disqualifies them and due to inertia octopus keep most of the disgruntled customers who are paying unexpected bills.  
 

Everyone important wins.  Shame about the house owners. 

[joe90]

Well for those that remember our Jeremy, his house generated more than he used, even paid for his council tax (not sure what rate his fit was however) but shows what can be done. It’s easy to be negative about innovation and I guess that time will tell.

[MikeSharp01]

 

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

It’s easy to be negative about innovation and I guess that time will tell.

 

Yes you are right Joe and to be fair I have not read the details from Octopus - but I just looked at our PHPP numbers for our PV, installing it today we were, our primary energy need is projected (by PHPP) to be 114 kWh/m^2, Our Treated Floor Area is 139m² so we would need around 15000 kWh. Meanwhile our current PV setup is projected to produce around 5000kWh/m² so we would need 3x our current 16 panels. Which is sort of mad given that we perhaps have enough roof area for an additional 8, and would need 8 phases to take away the 21kW generation @ peek any way. So this feels like it aimed at the big builders who can build a solar farm next to the properties - feeding the home individually and dealing with the electricity infrastructure costs needed to make it possible.

 

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Well for those that remember our Jeremy, his house generated more than he used, even paid for his council tax (not sure what rate his fit was however) but shows what can be done.

Jeremy did it with the Fit tariff - he generated more money than his electricity cost not enough electricity - he only had 3.8kW on the roof IIRC.

[G and J]

I think one way or the other something is amiss.  The deal appears to be on a house by house basis, so I don’t believe offset from local solar farm could be involved.  The email I copied above states the need to generate more than is used.  This deal is being advertised on normal mass developer houses, so I assume these houses are unlikely to be massively better than building regs thermal performance (see below link).
 

So either they don’t mean the “solar generation must exceed” or I’m missing something fundamental.  I will continue to investigate and report.  
 

https://www.unlocknetzero.co.uk/projects-innovation/hopkins-homes-announces-suffolks-first-zero-bills-homes-with-octopus-energy#:~:text=This pilot scheme will be,with no energy bills%2C guaranteed.

[joe90]

Interesting.     
 

Octopus Energy has now accredited close to 1,000 zero bills homes across the UK and aims to deliver 50,000 globally by 2025.  

 

it also depends on the price of the house I guess.

[Alan Ambrose]

Well I give them credit for ‘thinking outside the box’ even if I don’t yet get their whole economics analysis.

 

Maybe the clue is in the work ‘Kraken’ i.e. a legendary sea monster of gigantic size .

 

Colour me cynical - is this the next ‘houses sold as leasehold’, ‘cladding’ or ‘crazily escalating ground rents’ scandal?

 

Edited July 12 by Alan Ambrose

[JohnMo]

12 hours ago, G and J said:

missing something fundamental.  I will continue to investigate and report.  
 

https://www.unlocknetzero.co.uk/projects-innovation/hopkins-homes-announces-suffolks-first-zero-bills-homes-with-octopus-energy#:~:text=This pilot scheme will be,with no energy bills%2C guaranteed

Little strange the house in the images only have about 2kW of PV, not sure how that would work. Only some plots are zero bills they are EPC A, but developers website has zero detail except stating the house has ASHP, battery and PV.

Edited July 12 by JohnMo

[MikeSharp01]

On reflection I guess that some of the energy generation will come from ASHP. At a COP of 3.5 you are, after all getting 3.5kW out for each 1kW in. This sort of challenges the 'solar generation must exceed' idea although looking at my calcs above assuming I use all my solar to drive the ASHP at 3.5 COP then we do get there assuming the PHPP package is not already factoring in the COP on the ASHP.

[Marvin]

This all seems nuts to me.

 

The Netherlands and Australia are starting to charge people for absorbing excess PV energy as the amount of PV has risen so much beyond their needs during their summer.(another use for a smart meter!).The UK has only a small amount of energy storage capability and then we have to keep the power stations operable for when we don't have enough during the winter. When this is figured out we can save having a power station or two idle most of the time. How much do they cost now? £Billions?

 

We produce about twice what we use but still have to buy in because we can't store it for the winter.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

The Netherlands and Australia are starting to charge people for absorbing excess PV energy as the amount of PV has risen so much beyond their needs

But surely you can switch off/disconnect  PV. If you can divert excess to an immersion you can divert to open cct 🤷‍♂️

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

But surely you can switch off/disconnect  PV. If you can divert excess to an immersion you can divert to open cct 🤷‍♂️

Or pay for a G99 inverter if you need to and switch to zero export. The maths for paying MCS prices would soon change if we went that direction. 

[G and J]

Another snippet of info.  No response to my email from the eight legged sea creature (why did they think of the name Kraken I wonder) however I had a nice conversation with a sales dude from Hopkins homes.   The salient points:

 

 * it’s a kind of test, so there’s only a few plots designated to the zero thing on the whole development.

 
 * only one available for sale currently is a three bed detached.  Internal footprint is ~22’ x ~19’, and the plot concerned has a east/west ridge therefore a due south facing side.  I’m guessing this will hold circa 4kW Solar PV max.
 

 * T’s & C’s are between the buyer and Octopus, Hopkins are only involved in so much as they build a house to Octopus spec.  After that you are on your own!

 

 * The premium in a ‘zero’ house over the same design in normal spec. is circa £20k.

 

So, I’m wondering whether this is about distributed storage paid for by the house buyer.  Octopus would like to store umpteen mWhours but can’t afford the investment.  So they bribe homeowners to pay for and house loads of little batteries….

[SteamyTea]

11 hours ago, G and J said:

I’m wondering whether this is about distributed storage paid for by the house buyer.

I published an article about this over a decade ago, I wonder if read it.

 

There are some advantages of small, local storage in that the grid does not need reinforcing and the individual unit prices are low, so it is a very scalable system.