SteamyTea Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 45 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: socialist fantasy Got to be better than the alternative. High prices, low quality, limited supply and many small developers going bankrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted July 10 Author Share Posted July 10 Material shortages will fix themselves fairly quickly - the wholesaler just needs to put in bigger orders. The stuff that is imported should be back up to speed in, say, 3 months. The wholesaler will be very happy to deal with this problem. Labour will be happy to be busy and put its prices up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Material shortages will fix themselves fairly quickly - the wholesaler just needs to put in bigger orders. The stuff that is imported should be back up to speed in, say, 3 months. The wholesaler will be very happy to deal with this problem. Labour will be happy to be busy and put its prices up. how will these new factories be built immediately ? Forterra are already on 12 weeks leadtime for bricks as a single large site order from the big outfits maxes out there capacity. Energy prices are too high for them to run the kilns non stop. All that will happen is price will double, like when the kingspan factory burnt down in germany couple years ago, insulation prices doubled overnight and didnt come back down. As for wages going up massive, inflation ? 9% mortgage rates again ? Almost as bad as Truss! As with everything socialist its all ok until they run out of other peoples money. Edited July 10 by Dave Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dave Jones said: ... Will crash the whole lot as they always do. Now there's a well thought through, balanced argument. Oh, sorry 2 .... Quote As with everything socialist its all ok until they run out of other peoples money. And Conservatives also - it was rumoured - run out of other people's money . I am not for or against Socialist ideas or Hayek's ideas or anything that comes out of Tufton Street I'm for balanced, thoughtful, well argued . evidence based co-operation - Left and Right together. Edited July 10 by ToughButterCup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 I foresee skills and materials shortages which in turn inflates the build cost . Look at Covid ; how the economy coming back to life has pushed up material costs , with of course inflation and demand . New cities etc are a great idea but we have expensive materials already ( all self builders have found that out ) , equally Labour has increased its ‘asking’ price . ’affordable housing’ is a bit of a political catch all phrase - like ‘ Brexit means Brexit ‘ - doesn’t have any meaning . If this happens then yes more housing should be built - but at what quality and what cost ? . You can argue more housing regardless of quality or cost is better than none . I knew a kitchen installer on a large development told he’d get 1k for each kitchen he installed . Assumed was 3 days of work per kitchen . He raced through them doing 2 a day !!! . Quality must of binned . The developer realised this and then changed to £500 a kitchen …. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 40 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Now there's a well thought through, balanced argument. Oh, sorry 2 .... And Conservatives also - it was rumoured - run out of other people's money . I am not for or against Socialist ideas or Hayek's ideas or anything that comes out of Tufton Street I'm for balanced, thoughtful, well argued . evidence based co-operation - Left and Right together. hasnt been a true conservative government since 1990. Looking like Nigel Farage will be remedying that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 4 hours ago, Dave Jones said: hasnt been a true conservative government since 1990. Looking like Nigel Farage will be remedying that. That's a really interesting thing to say. In the context of this thread, to what extent do you think Mr Farage can be said to be Conservative? What are his views on Housing Targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Just now, ToughButterCup said: What are his views on Housing Targets? It will be a Points Based system, like they have in Australia. Or was that his policy on something else in the past, Public Health, or Education maybe. Or was it gun licences. Don't think that John Major was a right winger, Keith Clarke wasn't. 30 years ago was very middle of the road politics, hardly changed in '97. The past is a foreign country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc55 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 less than a week and it's all the commies fault already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) 8 hours ago, Dave Jones said: more socialist fantasy. I wrote this ages ago re speeding up challenges, and forgot to post it. Too lazy to check if it is all still relevant..... I could organise it, as could several on BH I feel, with government authority. Materials.There are lots of trees and cutting 2 years sooner is easy. Nails could be found. Cement? Yes there will be a premium. Add 2% to build cost. Stone? Open up old quarries, easy. There are hundreds. Blocks are very low-tech to make. Bricks are not necessary but some overtime in UK and Belgium would sort it. Terraces and flats instead of detached will save time and money. Build leisure and social facilities alongside. Skilled labour though??? Pay enough and reverse the uk's brexit barriers and the Eastern Europeans will return. That is the biggest issue: not organising it but the resistance of many to foreigners, especially brown ones. There was talk of an industry professional to be in charge. Another minister who is not an mp, with skill and knowledge in technical matters. I'm not volunteering. John Armitt would be the one. Channel Tunnel. London Olympics infrastructure. Not bad. Now housing supply. To be fair he may have done enough already, but he may know someone. Edited July 10 by saveasteading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, saveasteading said: Matetials.There are lots of trees and cutting 2 years sooner is easy. The farmer next to me has half a field full of wood (trees just felled) to make into fire wood. Gets it from the wood mills free or almost, as they don't want it at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 44 minutes ago, JohnMo said: farmer next to me Are these apple and cherry trees as I thought that all the farmers claim they are feeding the nation, and if they have environment rules and reduced subsidies forced in them, then the nation will starve to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 51 minutes ago, saveasteading said: ... Bricks are not necessary but some overtime in UK and Belgium would sort it. ... Fiterra mothballed our local brick works (Claughton) a year or so ago. The local clay makes beautiful bricks. https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/business/iconic-lancaster-brickworks-to-be-mothballed-as-housebuilding-slump-hits-demand-4376219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Are these apple and cherry trees as No - good old pine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: Gets it from the wood mills free or almost Wood mills buy wood. For money. If they didn't want it they wouldn't buy it. Not the whole story here. Perhaps it is site clearance. 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: apple and cherry trees Orchards are closing down as they are non-viable. I don't know the real reason but have heard variously : Fuel cost, lack of seasonal labour, grants gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Orchards are closing down as they are non-viable Does that mean that world class British fruit is not the export miracle the world was craving, but was stopped because of vicious Eurocrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 5 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Wood mills buy wood. For money. If they didn't want it they wouldn't buy it. Not when they are huge companies like in Scotland, they buy the whole forest years in advance, when they start cutting they don't stop until the whole area is cleared and then they replant the whole area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 8 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Not when they are huge companies like in Scotland. The opposite is the case as I understand it. If the price of timber drops, they can let them grow another year. A finnish timber company manager told me this is a fundamental benefit of owning both forests and timber mills. They would not fell it and give it away. Found this: We grow-to-size, harvest to order, and replant to replenish. We use the whole of the log – even sawdust, shavings, chips and bark, which supply the pulp and paper, chipboard, horticultural sectors. sister company, also makes use of our timber co-products, manufacturing clean, renewable wood fuel solutions to power everything from biomass plants to stoves and barbeques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 2 hours ago, saveasteading said: I wrote this ages ago re speeding up challenges, and forgot to post it. Too lazy to check if it is all still relevant..... I could organise it, as could several on BH I feel, with government authority. Materials.There are lots of trees and cutting 2 years sooner is easy. Nails could be found. Cement? Yes there will be a premium. Add 2% to build cost. Stone? Open up old quarries, easy. There are hundreds. Blocks are very low-tech to make. Bricks are not necessary but some overtime in UK and Belgium would sort it. Terraces and flats instead of detached will save time and money. Build leisure and social facilities alongside. Skilled labour though??? Pay enough and reverse the uk's brexit barriers and the Eastern Europeans will return. That is the biggest issue: not organising it but the resistance of many to foreigners, especially brown ones. There was talk of an industry professional to be in charge. Another minister who is not an mp, with skill and knowledge in technical matters. I'm not volunteering. John Armitt would be the one. Channel Tunnel. London Olympics infrastructure. Not bad. Now housing supply. To be fair he may have done enough already, but he may know someone. or reduce the demand back to 80's levels and do none of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 38 minutes ago, saveasteading said: They would not fell it and give it away. The farmer says he gets it nothing, six lorry loads the other day. He possibly fits into the bracket 40 minutes ago, saveasteading said: renewable wood fuel solutions to power to stoves Most will be burnt by this time next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 39 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: or reduce the demand back to 80's levels and do none of that What was the demand back then? We build 2,107,430 houses in the 1980s. That is a little bit more than the 1990s and 2000s. (I actually not sure I know what you mean, but the data of house building is available for all to see on the ONS website) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 12 hours ago, saveasteading said: ... Skilled labour though??? Pay enough and reverse the uk's brexit barriers and the Eastern Europeans will return. That is the biggest issue: not organising it but the resistance of many to foreigners, especially brown ones. .... I've just had a PM from someone asking about our piling company. So it reminded me.... Our piling company worked in partnership with a foundations wiring team. The lads formed and shaped rebar at a speed that made it look like they were handling plastic straws. Muscles were .... well I don't think they needed steroids working that hard and that fast. East European to a man. Their price was an order of magnitude lower than the others. To the extent that I was dubious about employing them. In the context of skills shortages in the building sector, not giving well qualified workers visas will impose unnecessary costs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 On 05/07/2024 at 13:14, garrymartin said: start building on their "land banks" or compulsory purchase 7 likes suggests a lot of us agree and have seen such sites. I wonder if the government knows though? Who would tell them? Maybe we 7 +1 should write to our mp. If anyone does, please circulate and it can be a template. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrymartin Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 26 minutes ago, saveasteading said: 7 likes suggests a lot of us agree and have seen such sites. I wonder if the government knows though? Who would tell them? I have an "acquaintance" who works for one of the large developers and has responsibility for finding sites and managing the site portfolio. They typically sit on land where they know developing it would not provide the maximum return on their investment; the future value conundrum. They only have so much capacity to build new housing, and certainly couldn't start on all the land they have available to them even if they were able to get permission for all of it. So they only bring forward land when the circumstances suit them, when precedents have been set in local appeals or in case law challenging appeals that mean they stand a good chance of getting permission when they might not have previously, or where the planning laws change in their favour. The problem with that is that there may be a wide range of other "developers" that might be treated more favourably from a planning perspective, who just don't have access to that land that the large developers are sitting on. So a community housing scheme or a group of self-builders might be able to get permission as under-served groups where the large developer wouldn't, but they just can't access the land. So here's my idea. If you are a developer, you should still be allowed to buy land, and can keep the land you have, but you must either turn that into deliverable housing within 5 years or you must relinquish the future rights for your company to develop the land for housing, and you must offer it for sale at the price you paid for it plus reasonable costs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 If a developers land goes up in value, it shows as an improvement on their balance sheet. Forcing a developer to build on land would just mean large developers trade land between themselves. It would not get any more houses built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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