Del-inquent Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 I'm trying to get an extension to our dormer sorted. 2 SE's I've spoken to so far have said it can only be done by inserting a steel. This is despite several neighbours having done the same thing with no steels involved. One SE has said we'll have to put all new joists in because we're converting a bungalow to living space in the roof. He couldn't seem to grasp that as a chalet the house was built to have living space up there and it already has joists large enough for the span. Question is - how would steels totalling 9m long be fitted inside a chalet bunglaow roof, without taking the entire roof off? Can't put in in from the sides outside as we have neighbours either side, and I don't think either would be too happy about me punching a hole through their house so I could stick a steel in mine... Both SE's have just said "your builder will know how to do it". Well I was planning on doing the whole thing myself when I thought it could be done in timber. Now I've been told it has to have a steel I've asked a couple of roofers. Both have said "how does the SE propose we get a steel in without taking the roof off". With an explanation that they can't take out the collars and ties because they are linked to the existing dormers, so they can't "angle it up in there". Am I just talking to the wrong people? Is there a way to do it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 It would be interesting if your neighbours could give you their plans involving only timber, that’s the way I would have liked to do it, however I have inserted a ridge steel in a terraced house by using a joint, your steel supplier will drill and supply what’s necessary to do this. Yes collars and ties can get in the way but your neighbours managed. Try to get their plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 (edited) 6 hours ago, joe90 said: It would be interesting if your neighbours could give you their plans involving only timber, that’s the way I would have liked to do it, however I have inserted a ridge steel in a terraced house by using a joint, your steel supplier will drill and supply what’s necessary to do this. Yes collars and ties can get in the way but your neighbours managed. Try to get their plans. I’ve asked but unfortunately they were converted before current owners and they don’t hold any plans. it’s proving to be rather frustrating! by my calcs I’d need to remove 5 collars minimum to have even a chance of getting a split beam in there, which would also mean taking out the front dormer roof on one side as the roof joists continue alongside the collars… Edited June 30 by Del-inquent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 can split the beams into sections, make a hole above the eaves and slide it in. If you have attic trusses already surely the SE can measure them and do the calculations for loading ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Take the ceilings down downstairs. Make a hole in the eaves, slip the steel in and support from underneath as you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 It sounds like your talking to SE without having one come to site. pay for a 2 hour site meeting, get the plasterboard all ripped out upstairs so you can see what’s going on. it will all become clear very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Onoff said: Take the ceilings down downstairs. Make a hole in the eaves, slip the steel in and support In other words it is messy. This is a big job for, presumably, a major benefit. Not everything is diy suitable. 9m is a very long span. As above, the beam can be made in sections, with joining plates to bolt together in place, while all being supported. As a rule of thumb, a 9m steel will be about 450mm deep or more. It is a big job. 12 hours ago, Del-inquent said: despite several neighbours having done the same thing with no steels involved. Maybe they should be worried. The loading on an attic is far less than for a room. Perhaps they haven't troubled the building inspector. Are their floors bouncy? Edited June 30 by saveasteading 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 11 hours ago, Russell griffiths said: It sounds like your talking to SE without having one come to site. pay for a 2 hour site meeting, get the plasterboard all ripped out upstairs so you can see what’s going on. it will all become clear very quickly. Last one I got a site visit from. He saw all the problems, whilst here he agreed that it wasn't viable to add steels. Then when he came back to me, it was to tell me to add steels. One of which was supported by a steel post. Which dissected the lounge doorway in half and was supported on thin air. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 (edited) 11 hours ago, Onoff said: Take the ceilings down downstairs. Make a hole in the eaves, slip the steel in and support from underneath as you go. There are no ceilings anywhere. To slip steels up into the eaves they would have to be about 1m long sections, you wouldn't be able to manoeuvre anything longer (if that, even) in. At least not in any way that I can tell. I can *just* pass a 1m length of 8x2 from downstair into the eaves, but a steel wouldn't be needed there anyway, it would be needed between the collars and ridge board, which is even tighter to get anything into. Edited June 30 by Del-inquent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 11 hours ago, saveasteading said: In other words it is messy. This is a big job for, presumably, a major benefit. Not everything is diy suitable. 9m is a very long span. As above, the beam can be made in sections, with joining plates to bolt together in place, while all being supported. As a rule of thumb, a 9m steel will be about 450mm deep or more. It is a big job. Maybe they should be worried. The loading on an attic is far less than for a room. Perhaps they haven't troubled the building inspector. Are their floors bouncy? The beam could be supported on an internal wall at 3.8m point. There are 2 futher internal walls downstairs that it could also be split onto. Just. But you still couldn't get any of them in without taking the roof off, at which point you'd just redesign the whole roof. It's not for a major benefit in terms of the house - it's not adding huge amounts of space, it's just allowing us to fit an additional bathroom to help make my life a bit more comfortable due to health issues. The point is, there is no 'attic', there never has been, they were all built as Chalet bungalows with the roof space as rooms, it's just that the neighbours have extended the existing dormers to fit an extra room in what was a useless eaves space. No bouncy floors, no reason for their to be bouncy floors, the joists are more than adequate for the spans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 2 hours ago, Del-inquent said: , the joists are more than adequate for the Good. So why do you need a long beam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted June 30 Author Share Posted June 30 14 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Good. So why do you need a long beam? That’s what I want to know! One SE said to support roof from wind load. One said to support weight of roof. Neither seemed to have put any effort into doing any design or calculations, just using a steel to avoid having to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) 24 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Good. So why do you need a long beam? Yes, so what are you altering within the roof structure that makes the beam necessary? Edited June 30 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 8 hours ago, Del-inquent said: Neither seemed to have put any effort into doing any design You can get lazy SEs like any other person. And the less you pay, the less input you will get. But you have asked two and got the same answer. I suspect you are asking the wrong question, perhaps looking for free advice, and they haven't seen the house. When one comes to site, and you are paying, it might be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 (edited) 28 minutes ago, saveasteading said: You can get lazy SEs like any other person. And the less you pay, the less input you will get. But you have asked two and got the same answer. I suspect you are asking the wrong question, perhaps looking for free advice, and they haven't seen the house. When one comes to site, and you are paying, it might be different. They have been to the site, I paid for it, it was FAR from the cheapest quote. That’s why i asked on it here about. I don’t want to waste more money. I’ve also supplied a full 3D CAD file in advance so they can see the entire structure, and there are no ceilings or floors in the property so they can see every last detail. I've had two tell me I need steels, but for different reasons and in different positions. Both were aware of the issue with getting a steel in. Edited July 1 by Del-inquent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 8 hours ago, joe90 said: Yes, so what are you altering within the roof structure that makes the beam necessary? At the moment there are two dormer windows on the front, one full room dormer on the back which covers just over 1/3rd of the length of the roof. I want to extend the rear dormer on either side so that I can move the current bedroom along a bit and get a bathroom in beside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Ah I see, if the large dormer is flat roofed it’s normal to instal a ridge beam which is usually steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 4 minutes ago, joe90 said: Ah I see, if the large dormer is flat roofed it’s normal to instal a ridge beam which is usually steel. That's what one of the SE's suggested. The other wanted two steel purlins. None of the neighbours I've spoken to have either, but they were done a long time ago. If one has to go in, it has to go in, but I cannot work out how it could be done without taking the entire roof off. The SE's just say that "the builder will be able to do it" when I ask how. When I speak to roofers for quotes, they ask me to ask the SE's how it's supposed to be done 😅 I have had an issue with a SE in the past on a renovation / extension. They wanted about £6k worth of steels put in. Another looked at it, took all the steel out and put in two 8 inch wooden posts instead. Which is what the roofer had suggested when he saw the plans. I guess I've become a little wary of SE's since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 It’s not easy to see the problem without drawings but as my Dad used to say “there is more than one way to skin a cat” it’s a shame your neighbours plans are not available to see how they did it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 9 minutes ago, Del-inquent said: I've become a little wary of SE's since I must have miread that they hadn't been to look. No harm in being wary. But few SEs have been contractors or worked closely (collaboratively) with them. Design involves theory, from the SE, and method, often suggestions of the builder. It seems the ones you have tried all know their limitations so that is a positive. I think you mentioned division walls that would prop up the steel. Are they structural? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 5 minutes ago, joe90 said: neighbours plans are not available to see how they did it. Possibly lashed together with lots if timber and without approval. Most such will survive, because we don’t get many hurricanes or deep snow, although we design for it. But it's serious if they don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 1 hour ago, saveasteading said: I must have miread that they hadn't been to look. No harm in being wary. But few SEs have been contractors or worked closely (collaboratively) with them. Design involves theory, from the SE, and method, often suggestions of the builder. It seems the ones you have tried all know their limitations so that is a positive. I think you mentioned division walls that would prop up the steel. Are they structural? There is a structural division wall perpendicular to the ridge that goes all the way up to the collars, 3.8m away from the external wall, top of which is about 750mm below the ridge board to the top of the block, though has a collar resting atop it as well. There are other structural walls downstairs, but transmitting the load from ceiling of upstairs to top of wall downstairs would be problematic. Unless you wanted to sleep with a post through the middle of the bed lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 @Del-inquent I really think we need some drawings, even pencil sketches to understand your house make up and what you propose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del-inquent Posted July 1 Author Share Posted July 1 8 minutes ago, joe90 said: @Del-inquent I really think we need some drawings, even pencil sketches to understand your house make up and what you propose. This is the rear dormer I want to make wider first (external leaf removed) and the current front dormer windows. Accurate to 5mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 And where in those views does your SE think a steel is needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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