pulhamdown Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 (edited) We built a near passiv house in 2012. At the time, we received a SAP report giving us A100. May have been slightly optimistic, but that's what we got. Fast forward 12 years, and we applied for a grant to fit an air source heat pump, to replace an old oil fired boiler, in Scotland. Heat pump installed, although a bit complicated as I wanted to retain our thermal store with thermal PV and a log back boiler, and working extremely well. We needed a new EPC for the grant requirements. The EPC was done, and we received a rating of C74. I knew when the guy arrived that things were not going well. He was not interested in the house specification documents I offered him for inspection. After showing him the current, albeit out of date EPC, he said he'd never given a rating higher than 80, and this house wouldn't be that high. He also asked if he could access the underfloor, in a house built on a 12 inch insulated concrete slab with underfloor heating! So after a bit of research, I realised why. When a house is newly built, the house is assessed by a SAP report. Once the house has been built, a RdSAP is used. Reduced data SAP report! So the date of the build is entered, and minimum building standards from that year are assumed! So my near passiv house has the same rating as the Barrett jerry built houses down the road! Also, mains gas is still the preferred fuel, as the data is at least 10 years out of date, so electricity is still provided by coal! I believe that heat pumps are still not on the system, so are considered direct electricity! Thus proving comprehensively that the current RdSAP is totally worthless, even in a standard housing estate house. So my £180.00 for the survey was a complete and utter waste of money. I will now find an assessor who can carry out a SAP survey, based on the specification of the house as built. No wonder the government is struggling to persuade people to build better housing! Who knew there was a two tier SAP system? Not me! Post Script. When I asked him how to improve our score, he said convert to mains gas, and install a wind turbine! You couldn't make it up!! Edited May 28 by pulhamdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 5 minutes ago, pulhamdown said: my £180.00 for the survey was a complete and utter waste of money. I will now find an assessor who can carry out a SAP survey, based on the specification of the house as built Why - does what you were given allow you get the grant? If yes move on. Are you wanting to sell, don't pay the bill/complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR10 Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 18 minutes ago, pulhamdown said: I will now find an assessor who can carry out a SAP survey, based on the specification of the house as built. I don't think anyone apart from most self-builders care about this stuff. So before you throw good money on some numpty one to carry out a survey why don't you use one of the online companies. You give them the info, they put it in with no arguments and voila ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulhamdown Posted May 28 Author Share Posted May 28 32 minutes ago, MR10 said: I don't think anyone apart from most self-builders care about this stuff. So before you throw good money on some numpty one to carry out a survey why don't you use one of the online companies. You give them the info, they put it in with no arguments and voila ! Sounds like a plan. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Yeah, annoying though that there’s an official system that is complete b…..x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 We got an A94 on the as built sap that I am happy with. BC told me it was the first A he had seen. I have often speculated if we want to sell in the future it will be almost impossible to replicate the same EPC. but no plans to sell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Yes EPC's are an unreliable measuring tool. The biggest problem is that, it needed to be simple enough to complete in a short amount of time, so if you have a non-standard property your stuffed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 No one cares except a few sados on here Weve sold our first self build Around 20 viewings Only one couple where remotely interested in airtightness and insulation levels Kitchens Bathrooms Schools Would we take an offer Predictable Most of the new hoses I work score a 2 for airtightness Done as a desktop study It’s five years since I’ve seen an air test being carried out on site and that was a commercial unit Three range Rovers Three fans Score 2 We hadn’t finished sealing the building Imagine the score if we had Could have been an A star ⭐️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 2 hours ago, nod said: No one cares except a few sados on here sado here. They should be very useful if only the formulae weren't written by impractical people and if so many assessors weren't either ill-informed or worse. as long as the developers can choose the unit they want to air test then it is useless and pointless. Perhaps one reason why the developers chuck so much money at certain mps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 10 hours ago, pulhamdown said: So my £180.00 for the survey was a complete and utter waste of money. I feel for you.. but for £180.00 what did you expect? You are asking for professional advice. I've just paid for a washing machine engineer for a call out.. cost me 50.00 for an hour. I'm an SE that works for myself at home in my wee office. My rate varies from £35.00 per hour for say knocking out some TF panels to £275 - 300/ hour when I'm say doing high end stuff, fighting big claims against say the NHBC or fixing a big structural problem. In the round I have a mix of bread and butter jobs; small, medium and the high end stuff. My rates reflect my skills, experience, the risk I have to carry and the fact that I like to have a mix of work that I enjoy. But for £180.00 the assessor can't really spend that much time. I do some heat loss calcs and can tell you that in your case I would be looking for some thing in the region of £1000 - 1500 and then be able to justify that by the savings I would make you. Yes you are right the system is a lot of bollocks. I think you will find a more informed accessor but you'll need to pay accordingly as above. Edited May 29 by Gus Potter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 5 hours ago, saveasteading said: sado here. They should be very useful if only the formulae weren't written by impractical people and if so many assessors weren't either ill-informed or worse. as long as the developers can choose the unit they want to air test then it is useless and pointless. Perhaps one reason why the developers chuck so much money at certain mps. Perhaps sado is a bit strong The problem with EPC Sap Air test etc Is Even if the average person did know or care They are all meaningless They are simply a box ticking exercise and can be purchased like most things 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 2 hours ago, nod said: EPC Sap Air test etc. Also think the misinformed population think an airtight house is a house ready to rot and suffer from mould at worst or you are talking meaningless words at best. So who cares what the EPC says? a bunch of self builders and those chasing free money from grants and that is where the list stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Perhaps for the average person, an easier, and potentially more accurate measure of how "good" a house is, would be to simply publish the annual heating cost. Problems with that are separating heating from other energy use (I fitted an old electricity meter specifically to measure heat pump consumption) and of course those prepared to live in a freezing house over winter would get a "good" score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 I've been required to do air tests on commercial buildings where I know that loading doors will be left open all day. In such a case we, and the client simply want a pass to sign off the building. I've met and questioned some of the people from BRE who set this stuff up, and will not comment further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 54 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Also think the misinformed population think an airtight house is a house ready to rot and suffer from mould at worst or you are talking meaningless words at best. So who cares what the EPC says? a bunch of self builders and those chasing free money from grants and that is where the list stops. A big part of my business if commercial fireproofing Which amounts to the same thing Airtightness For obvious reasons this is tested with in an inch of its life Most homes wouldn’t pass if they actually tested 1-7 like they are supposed to be Im not sure why there is any requirement for a self builder to have an air test The powers that be must realize that air tests have become a paper pushing exercise elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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