help - can anyone recommend a good asap installer/fixer/advisor

[carou]

after a company's fitted it and I can't get faults sorted is there anyone who can take on the complaint for me and sort it out please.  I'm a self builder with no energy etc to sort it out with recc.org.uk their governing body https://www.recc.org.uk/scheme/consumer-code#tag7.3. it says I can use a friend or relative to help me but I'm just happy to pay an expert to do it for me.  Im a complete beginner and have somehow managed to build a soon to be certified passive house.  my architect's brilliant but it's not his bag, my PM is also not keen to take it on as I've completely run out of cash and he's so busy doing other projects now.  

Edited May 16 by carou

[nod]

2 hours ago, carou said:

after a company's fitted it and I can't get faults sorted is there anyone who can take on the complaint for me and sort it out please.  I'm a self builder with no energy etc to sort it out with recc.org.uk their governing body https://www.recc.org.uk/scheme/consumer-code#tag7.3. it says I can use a friend or relative to help me but I'm just happy to pay an expert to do it for me.  Im a complete beginner and have somehow managed to build a soon to be certified passive house.  my architect's brilliant but it's not his bag, my PM is also not keen to take it on as I've completely run out of cash and he's so busy doing other projects now.  

Location?

[JohnMo]

Was it installed via the MCS grant scheme?

[MikeSharp01]

If they are RECC members then they must also be MCS certified as the latter enables the former. So you may have two codes to leverage your claim but they may both give you the run around. Have you looked at their, RECC's, FAQs if things go wrong - https://www.recc.org.uk/consumers/if-things-go-wrong might help. 

[sharpener]

Contacting MCS will be as good as asking a chocolate teapot.

Surprised your architect or PM can't suggest anyone or a way forward.

 

Try and locate a Heat Geek near you https://www.heatgeek.com/find-a-heat-geek/. If you pay for their advice to fix the probs their report may also help a later case with MCS and/or RECC.

 

Or start the Small Claims Court process against the original installer, it will show him you are serious and maybe sharpen his mind.

 

[SteamyTea]

What is actually the fault/problems.

May be a simple fix that can be sorted out by members on here.

[carou]

I’m in Sussex. Yr replies really helpful. MCs line of enquiry said get them back and make sure they get on the ringer to Samsung. The A and PM have said get them back. Got them back and they said Samsung don’t have their own technical the sub out to the likes of whoever they employ and plumber said he’d often get calls from them as he’s done their course. Basically he’s said the constant clicking on off and completely drawing my solar to zero (does it when on Program to keep it at 21) The thing kicks in ‘when’ it’s already 21! It’s bonkers. Plumber said just turn it off in summer as I don’t need it. BUT come winter I’ll need it so want iron out issue now and before I pay final bill. He said the zone of difference on the honeywell is one degree half up and half down so it shouldnt be calling for heat BUT (and here I need a leap of faith) he said honeywells  got a built in intelligence and will stop doing it once it realises or works it out!! The other issue is I’d like a WiFi connector to it so Samsung can monitor how it’s working but am told I can’t have it. 
Samsung EHS R32 Monobloc Heat Pump 8 KW AE080RXYDEG/EU

Plus when it’s running it can go a bit whirring and it gets a bit louder than normal. 

Edited May 18 by carou

[sharpener]

Sounds like it is basically functional but a control issue.

 

You have to know what you are doing to incorporate third party controls. What exactly is the role this "honeywell" control is supposed to be playing in the system, is it some kind of smart room stat? If you can give us a further description, picture and/or exact model number it would help.

 

Others may know what is usual for the Samsung you have got.

 

30 minutes ago, carou said:

BUT come winter I’ll need it so want iron out issue now and before I pay final bill.

 

Absolutely, stick to your guns!

[carou]

They’re quite a common room stat. I’ve got x 2 Honeywell one up and one down. 

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, carou said:

They’re quite a common room stat. I’ve got x 2 Honeywell one up and one down. 

 

Yes. But Honeywell make lots of different controls. I have inherited 4 plain thermostats for the UFH and another on the landing. And have also got their Evohome wireless TRV system for the rads.

 

14 hours ago, carou said:

he said honeywells  got a built in intelligence

 

so assuming there is a grain of truth in what the plumber said I think it must be some kind of smart stat.

 

[carou]

On 18/05/2024 at 23:44, sharpener said:

 

Yes. But Honeywell make lots of different controls. I have inherited 4 plain thermostats for the UFH and another on the landing. And have also got their Evohome wireless TRV system for the rads.

 

 

so assuming there is a grain of truth in what the plumber said I think it must be some kind of smart stat.

 

Yes it’s a smart stat. 

[JamesPa]

On 18/05/2024 at 09:29, carou said:

Basically he’s said the constant clicking on off and completely drawing my solar to zero (does it when on Program to keep it at 21) The thing kicks in ‘when’ it’s already 21! It’s bonkers. Plumber said just turn it off in summer as I don’t need it. BUT come winter I’ll need it so want iron out issue now and before I pay final bill. He said the zone of difference on the honeywell is one degree half up and half down so it shouldnt be calling for heat BUT (and here I need a leap of faith) he said honeywells  got a built in intelligence and will stop doing it once it realises or works it out!!

If I understand this correctly the 'problem' is that the system is switching (a bit noisily) on and off at the present time.  Any heating system is going to do that when the ambient temperature is close to the demand temperature.  Best at this point just to switch it off altogether or turn the controlling thermostat down (or the temperature limiting stat up) so it doesn't trigger.  Having said that you should ideally not be using external controls to control the heat pump, that is best left to its native control.  Do you know what the Honeywell thermostats are for.  If correctly installed they should be used as temperature limiters only, ie the native control of the heat pump does most of the work (using weather compensation) and they are set above the design temperature to kick in only when there is excess heat eg due to solar gain.  You dont need a smart stat for that, a dumb stat does the job.  Were you left any documentation/instruction on how the system operates/a system diagram - you should have, and if you weren't I would first complain about this as its easy to fix and indisputable.

 

 

 

On 18/05/2024 at 09:29, carou said:

The other issue is I’d like a WiFi connector to it so Samsung can monitor how it’s working but am told I can’t have it. 
Samsung EHS R32 Monobloc Heat Pump 8 KW AE080RXYDEG/EU

They do this, but if the honeywell is doing the actual controlling it wont help much.  I would understand/get the control system sorted first!

https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/samsung-heat-pumps/samsung-ehs-wifi-controller-kit-mim-h04en

 

On 18/05/2024 at 09:29, carou said:

Plus when it’s running it can go a bit whirring and it gets a bit louder than normal. 

Is this space heating or dhw heating?  In what circumstances?  How do you know its 'louder than normal'

Edited May 22 by JamesPa

[carou]

thank you so much.  He's been back again and he is indeed a heat geek and on their register.  it basically boils down the the ashp model is a high temp one because my architect told them he wanted short sharp burst of heat as my only heating is UFH downstairs (set into the concrete slab) and 3 x towel rads and 2 x bedroom rad on the FF.  these ashp do not have their own thermostat so they had to use Honeywell stand alone but he says it working purely as on/off.  He said that he'd set it to low temp mode so it's operating as a low temp ashp pump because ..... !!! in order to get heat on in the GF shower room I have to wack the heat up manually and then do a waiting game for it to get hot and it also won't get hot anyways due to weather compensation (it's hot outside) only warm.  He's been back to change over a wire that samsung told him to do to stop the E912 error, done various thing to the Honeywell stat to stop it clicking on/off so much.  He said I should just set it to 21 and leave it alone or just switch it off in the summer.  I can't cope with all the phaf tbh so I'll just fingers crossed and hope from now on and keep monitoring it.  

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, carou said:

architect told them he wanted short sharp burst of heat as my only heating is UFH downstairs 

 

Your architect is dim, that's not how you work UFH. Installer is worse he should have corrected him.

 

Long and slow is best for all heating types with a heat pump, especially UFH.

 

So if you have WC mode enabled, you run so the thermostat do nothing much, use them as temperature protection. So I would wind the room thermostat (s) up to say 23, and leave the heating to sort it's self out for 24 hrs. If the whole house is hotter than you want the WC curve needs to be adjusted down. If individual rooms are hotter or colder the UFH loops need to be adjusted, more flow is hotter, less flow is cooler.

 

But the heat geek guy should be advising all this.

 

Then once set the heat pump should manage itself.

 

[JamesPa]

28 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

 

Your architect is dim, that's not how you work UFH. Installer is worse he should have corrected him.

 

Long and slow is best for all heating types with a heat pump, especially UFH.

 

So if you have WC mode enabled, you run so the thermostat do nothing much, use them as temperature protection. So I would wind the room thermostat (s) up to say 23, and leave the heating to sort it's self out for 24 hrs. If the whole house is hotter than you want the WC curve needs to be adjusted down. If individual rooms are hotter or colder the UFH loops need to be adjusted, more flow is hotter, less flow is cooler.

 

But the heat geek guy should be advising all this.

 

Then once set the heat pump should manage itself.

 

Basically agreed (longer answer sent in PM)

 

I'm guessing the architect didn't know much about heating (many don't so far as I can tell) and the installer might have been a general plumber and/or took the view that his/her role was to do as he was told from by drawings. 

 

It occurs to me that, for a new build particularly, its quite possible to arrange things so that nobody involved has a clue or can reasonably be expected to have a clue, and thus nobody is really accountable.  In this case the plumber could possibly argue zero responsibility for heating design on the grounds that the architect has specified it.  Obviously not if you are claiming the grant the installer must have MCS, but if you aren't claiming the grant then they don't. 

 

By way of a concrete example of this I was recently involved in a community centre build where the architect employed an M&E consultant to spec the (ASHP) heating, which he did in considerable detail.  The plumber could quite legitimately have followed the design to the letter, and the architect have been covered (at least to first order) on the grounds that he had taken advice from a professional.  As a customer I had no contact or contract with the M&E designer.  Fortunately I spotted that the design was obviously a piece of hopelessly overengineered sh1t, and intercepted it early on.  Had I not done so it would likely have been installed as 'designed' (which would have involved much unnecessary work) and we would have had the devil of a job holding anyone responsible.  Caveat emptor!

Edited May 23 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

6 hours ago, carou said:

He's been back again and he is indeed a heat geek and on their register.  

 

It's not entirely clear to me if this is the original installer or someone you have got in subsequently to advise. If the former he clearly should not be on the HG register if he did not query the architect's original spec and could not subsequently sort it out better.

 

As @JohnMo says wind up all thermostats out of the way and get the basic Weather Comp properly tuned up to begin with. Yes it is bound to cycle on and off at this time of year bc the heat demand will be quite small.

 

Then later you might be able to add specific programming (e.g. extra heat in the GF shower at particular times of day) though that might not work too well depending on what the system time constant is. OTOH if it is many hours then a time-of-use electricity tariff might give you considerable savings.

[JamesPa]

I had another thought about this system.  It combines towel rails which usually needs high ft to emit much heat, radiators which usually need a medium ft, and ufh which generally relies on low ft.

 

Of course it is possible to design such a system to work well and efficiently, but it does need design.  I hope it wasn't specified by an architect to 'look right' without any consideration of the thermodynamics, and then installed (possibly quite reasonably from a contractural standpoint) by a plumber according to the drawings but without further design!

 

@carou we need more info from you.  System diagram and thermal design if you have them.

Edited May 23 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

3 hours ago, JamesPa said:

It combines towel rails which usually needs high ft to emit much heat, radiators which usually need a medium ft, and ufh which generally relies on low ft.

 

I gave up trying to think how this might be done using an HP I am not familiar with and not knowing what flow temps the 3 different classes of emitter were designed (?) for. 

 

Are there mixers for the UFH for example so the rads can run at a higher temp (not optimal for the UFH)?

 

On 18/05/2024 at 22:23, carou said:

They’re quite a common room stat. I’ve got x 2 Honeywell one up and one down. 

 

As well as the schematics it would be good to have the part nos. or pictures of these two smart stats; later though you seem to imply the HP is controlled by only one.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

physically remove all the stats, any zone controls, timers etc. 

 

Get back to just the heat pump controller and set it to weather comp.

[JamesPa]

9 hours ago, sharpener said:

I gave up trying to think how this might be done using an HP I am not familiar with and not knowing what flow temps the 3 different classes of emitter were designed (?) for. 

 

Are there mixers for the UFH for example so the rads can run at a higher temp (not optimal for the UFH)?

Irrespective of the heat source you have three different heating elements which, unless sized appropriately, potentially require different flow temperatures to operate at their optimum.  That's a challenge whether you have an ashp, a gas boiler or an oil boiler.  That's why I am a bit concerned that the architect may have specified it to look right, leaving it to 'others' to make it actually work, which the 'others' may or may not have considered 'in scope'.

 

The obvious route in the ASHP case would be to design all three to work at the same flow temp by using sufficiently large rads, very large towel rails and maybe spacing the UFH out a bit more so it could run a bit higher than 35 (but not too much higher otherwise you burn your feet!).

 

Alternatively match the flow temps for rads and UFH (by using large rads) and treat the towel rails as a separate zone like DHW, to be turned on only when needed and diverting heat from the rest of the house.  OP reports something that the architect said which suggests that this might be the intent.

 

You could potentially mix flow with the return from rads to create the flow temp required for UFH.  But it wouldn't be reliable if the rads were on a different 'schedule' to the UFH.  Not sure how you could mix down from towel rad flow temp if the design means that they do require a high FT.

 

I get the impression the house is low loss, possibly even close to passive.  If so maybe that the idea is that the rads upstairs are secondary, and most of the (small amount of) heating is from the UFH downstairs.  This would work if its reasonably open plan, several on here have reported houses where the principal (or only) source of heat is downstairs.  In this scenario the towel rails are only for heating towels and potenitally everything could be run at 35C.  But that's not consistent with what the architect appears to have told the plumber.

 

A poor option is to run it all at HT and put thermostats on the UFH and rads.  The Heat Geek guy seems to have ruled that out/advised against it, but it would be consistent with what the architect appears to have said.  Running it all at say 55 wouldn't be too bad from an efficiency point of view (although a bit of a shame given UFH, but if its a low loss house not so important in absolute terms).  I'm not sure whether this would be too hot for the UFH.  Modulated and sufficiently deep in the slab it could well be OK.

 

What is clear is that it needs thoughtful design to work at all, and very thoughtful design to work efficiently.  Whats not clear is whether that thoughtful design has actually taken place.  Schematics and heat loss calcs needed!

 

 

Edited May 24 by JamesPa

[carou]

sorry for the delay in responding to you:

 

the type of heat pump is 

Samsung HTQ 8kw air source heat pump

300 litre unvented cylinder, 50 litre buffer cylinder, 18 litre central heating expansion vessel,

Samsung EHS LNHT 8Kw flow temp 35 scop 4.46 with UFH nd 5 rads 3 towel rads 2 of which are dual fuel

schematics to follow (he can't find them as on an old server)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcXAtVjdRE8

it doesn't have it's own stat built in. In asking him why he designed this one he cannot answer only to blame me for saying the architect spec'd instant heat, then sent me an email saying I 'said' that that was what the architect wanted. having now looked back on emails the architect said instant heat in the form of rads as he didn't want/think it was a good idea in a PH to have UFH but he came back with 'no UFH is the best way to heat my home' knowing the UFH would be in the slab. so me and architect were led by his recommendations to have ufh (installed by MBC the timber Frame company).  He  designed the High heat ASHP, not the architect or me.  He can't answer why did he put one in that's not got its own built in stat.  So I'm stuck with Honeywell clicking on off.  he's limited to a certain amount of on/offs per day but again won't say what he's done. mcs say if I want to complain to them they'll deal with it and liaise with ncis and if they don't resolve then they can pursue a higher level complaint.  unsure of what to do.  he said the Honeywell is acting just as a temp limiter and on/off it's not controlling the temp so I'm confused.com.   the PH certifier need them to provide schematics etc but it's like asking for blood.  it's all on an old server apparently?!

Edited June 7 by carou

[JohnMo]

On 23/05/2024 at 12:41, carou said:

He's been back again and he is indeed a heat geek and on their register.

 

When running weather compensation the thermostat is there as a limit stop. It's not for room temperature control, it's for limiting room or house max temperature via solar gain for example. This thermostat is set to 23 degs if you want a room at 21. So it's always on.

 

With WC (water law) on the heating just flows at low temp all the time. The heat pump will cycle on and off when heat demand is less than lowest modulation allowed. This is normal. The important bit is you don't try and switch on and off all the time as it's then playing catch up and using way more energy than it needs to. If the house gets to warm or to cold the water law temp needs to be adjusted.

 

I see you mentioned you have a passivhaus, your rate of temperature change is low. UFH is fine, it just a matter of controlling it and really is just a big energy store. It just drips heat into the house in a comfortable way. It's also self controlling as the floor temp should not be more than a couple degs hotter than the house.

 

Blasting heat as suggested by your architect is nonsense in any system or house type.

[sharpener]

6 hours ago, carou said:

the PH certifier need them to provide schematics etc but it's like asking for blood.  it's all on an old server apparently?!

 

If he cannot provide this kind of info because he no longer has access to his own records I would have thought this was a prima facie breach of the MCS membership conditions. Under them he is supposed to give you a clear explanation of how all the controls work and provide you with proper documentation. And from the load of bobbins you report him saying he certainly does not deserve to be registered as a Heat Geek either. So IMO you have good grounds for complaint to both organisations.

[JamesPa]

I agree with pretty much all that @sharpener, @JohnMo have said.  Unlike @Dave Jones I would turn thermostats and trvs up to 2c above target temperature ( instead of removing them - but with the same effect hopefully) and then use wc(water law in samsung terms) to run the heat pump as @Dave Jones and others suggest.  This is the basic starting point from which to tweak if necessary, whereas a heat pump where the principal thermal control is external (eg an external thermostat) is starting from the wrong place.

 

However adjusting central heating in summer is difficult/impossible, so practically speaking what I would do now is concentrate on acquiring the necessary information.  I would pressurise the installer for the system diagram and the thermal calculations he did to size the system and emitters.  If these arent supplied within say 2 weeks I would use the threat of reporting him to mcs etc to apply more pressure, giving him another week, then I would complain to mcs and any other body of which he is a member about failure to provide these things or an explanation of the system.  Realistically its going to be September/October before you can tweak anything and expect to get useful feedback from the system in operation, so it's worth the time to see if you can get this info.

 

If you want a third party to look at it instead of doing this all yourself I pmd a link to one I found (but can't vouch for).  However they would be working with one hand behind their back without the above info, and also will find it difficult to prove any changes now, so personally I wouldn't actually engage anyone until later in the year (by all means make contact of course to explore what people offer).  

 

Once you have the system diagram and thermal calculations post them here so others can comment.

 

In another forum there is an extensive discussion on a couple of the control settings for the water pump (settings 2091 and 2092) in relation to external thermostats.  I don't think this discussion is particularly conclusive but if you are able it would be worth checking what values these parameters are currently set to as part of the information collection you are currently doing.

 

I hope that helps, please post again when you have more info (or if you draw a blank!)