Timberframe choices

[Thedreamer]

Timberframe options:

 

Trying to decide between the following:

 

1) - Order a timberframe kit which has closed panels with insulation/windows already incorporated within the kit.

2) - Order a structural timberframe kit with open panels and fit insulation and windows on site.  

3) - Stick build with timber sourced from Jewsons etc with a joiner cutting and erecting on site and specialist trusses ordered in.

 

I'm leaning towards option two. I'm going to need attic trusses and these are going to come from a factory, so I'm wondering if we should just order the whole structural kit in one go. 

 

How did others decide this?  

 

[IanR]

Whether panelised or not was not decisive for me, although building around an existing steel structure was easier with a stick built frame. More important was a robust buildup designed to be able to deliver the air tightness I was after and an experienced frame erection "crew" capable of delivering the quality required to deliver the air tightness target. I also had some tricky detailing to work out around the existing steel frame so needed to be confident the design team could come up with bespoke solutions that resolved these issues without compromising thermal bridging and air tightness.

 

I talked to a lot of companies but was only left with one in the end that I had confidence in which was Touchwood Homes. The downside to that was I had to fit in with their timing and I wasn't in the strongest position to negotiate down the price as I didn't really have a plan B.

 

Very happy with the outcome though, the frame is excellent, and nothing was left to chance. All the tricky detailing was designed and engineered before they got to site so there were no surprises that required a quick fix during the build phase.

[dpmiller]

Have you tried anyone this side of the Irish Sea? Most if not all undertake projects on the Mainland. I've been comparing systems and quotes and for us there's one supplier in particular I like the look of- the frame spec is a match for the best, but their wall buildup is 0.15u factory closed panel and the pricing very attractive.

 

http://www.leadontimberframe.com/

 

 

[ProDave]

What insulation levels do you want?

 

I wanted a pretty well insulated house, better than the standard offerings of most of the timber framed companies.  I tried talking to them about taking a standard kit and adding extra insulation, they then refused to quote.

 

I ended up paying a local eco house builder to design what I wanted, and then paid a local firm of builders to make the frame off site, and bring it to site in sections and erect it.

 

I am now doing all the detailing and fit out myself.

[Crofter]

Quite a few options locally for timber frame.

Your trusses will likely come from a specialist anyway so I wouldn't let than influence the decision.

Why not have a look at some builds in progress? Give MacQueens and ScotFrame a call, just for starters.

[Simplysimon]

costs will obviously have an impact between the three,  with one being the most expensive though faster build and three the reverse. i'm going with option three but with jji wall build as per touchwood and  @IanR . 

[Thedreamer]

8 hours ago, ProDave said:

What insulation levels do you want?

 

I wanted a pretty well insulated house, better than the standard offerings of most of the timber framed companies.  I tried talking to them about taking a standard kit and adding extra insulation, they then refused to quote.

 

I ended up paying a local eco house builder to design what I wanted, and then paid a local firm of builders to make the frame off site, and bring it to site in sections and erect it.

 

I am now doing all the detailing and fit out myself.

 

Standard insulation to meet building regulations.

 

How did the costs compare to ordering from one of the large timber frame suppliers?

Did you provide the timber to the builders?

I used this calculator and it suggested the structural elements of the timber frame for 140sqm house to be £21,000 and £5,600 to erect. Does this seem reasonable?

 

https://www.fleminghomes.co.uk/self-build-resources/cost-calculator/

 

 

 

[ProDave]

I paid my builders to supply materials, build the frame, and erect it. They also did the foundations (though I did the digging, they just poured the concrete and did all the under building)  I wanted an all in package so they could do the job VAT free.  If I had supplied the materials, I would not have been able to reclaim the VAT until the end.

 

I never did actually get a price from any other firm as there were not many that would do the insulation levels I wanted. But based on several on here that have used MBC, I probably paid a little more than they would have charged.

 

I suspect my frame and erect price was higher than that estimate, but I am pretty sure my total cost will be less. I am still expecting to complete for £1000 per square metre.

[Thedreamer]

6 hours ago, Crofter said:

Quite a few options locally for timber frame.

Your trusses will likely come from a specialist anyway so I wouldn't let than influence the decision.

Why not have a look at some builds in progress? Give MacQueens and ScotFrame a call, just for starters.

 

Yes, going to make some calls next week and start the ball rolling. Not considered MacQueens they must make closed panels for R-house in Crossal. I checked these out when we first considered self building, but r-houses seem expensive and have jumped in price over the last few years. I always wondered how much more you pay for the speed are having a timberframe put together in one day. 

[Thedreamer]

7 hours ago, Crofter said:

Quite a few options locally for timber frame.

Your trusses will likely come from a specialist anyway so I wouldn't let than influence the decision.

Why not have a look at some builds in progress? Give MacQueens and ScotFrame a call, just for starters.

I forgot to ask in my previous post, the point regarding the specialist for the trusses. Are attic trusses for 1.5 storey cut by the likes of a Scot Frame or would these come separately from the likes of Pasquill?

[dpmiller]

If you're 1.5 storey are you sure it'll be attic trusses? Or are you just room-in-roof? Ours is a true 1.5 and will use a combo of collar and tophat+ cut sections.

[Crofter]

8 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

I forgot to ask in my previous post, the point regarding the specialist for the trusses. Are attic trusses for 1.5 storey cut by the likes of a Scot Frame or would these come separately from the likes of Pasquill?

 

Can't say for sure, sorry. Loads of different people will do trusses for you (even some BMs) but I bet many of them end up being contracted out to the same factory. Whether you pay a markup or not again is something I don't know.

[bissoejosh]

On 10/13/2017 at 23:50, Thedreamer said:

 

We've taken a slightly different approach which may be of interest. Our frame is being designed by an independent consultant who will produce a machine file that is sent to a factory for cutting. This is also signed off by a SE to satisfy reg requirements.

 

I believe that this is the same factory supplying at least one of the larger TF outfits. The end result should be a fully precision cut frame, supplied in stick build format for us to assemble ourselves or with local assistance if required. Obviously the big advantage to this method is we don't pay any timber frame company markups. Judging by the quotes we received compared to our factory price these can be substantial, and for us would have taken a significant part of our budget.

 

The consultant is also supplying a full set of assembly instructions including a 3D model that allow us to walk through the structure and take a closer look at joints or components if needed. For reference this is all being done with an i-Stud / Beam construction 245mm on the walls and 300mm for the roof.

 

Happy to provide more details if required / allowed...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by bissoejosh
typo

[IanR]

1 hour ago, bissoejosh said:

Our frame is being designed by an independent consultant who will produce a machine file that is sent to a factory for cutting. This is also signed off by a SE to satisfy reg requirements.

 

~snip ~~~~~~~

 

The consultant is also supplying a full set of assembly instructions including a 3D model that allow us to walk through the structure and take a closer look at joints or components if needed.

 

Sounds like a similar service to what Cullen Timber Design offer. Definitely worth sharing your experiences of who you are working with as I'm sure it could benefit others. The route I took got me involved with CTD and their service was excellent.

Edited October 16, 2017 by IanR

[bissoejosh]

33 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Sounds like a similar service to what Cullen Timber Design offer.

 

Yep, that's them. Rob & Jordan (our designer) have been superb so far and the 3D modelling has been very helpful for working out other aspects of the build. Refreshing compared to so many of our local TF firms who only seem to understand a standard 140mm stud build.

[IanR]

Just now, bissoejosh said:

 

Yep, that's them. Rob & Jordan (our designer) have been superb so far and the 3D modelling has been very helpful for working out other aspects of the build. Refreshing compared to so many of our local TF firms who only seem to understand a standard 140mm stud build.

 

Couldn't agree more. I was able to 3D scan the existing steel frame of the original cow-shed we converted, and CTD then built the timber structure around it, resolving the issues in CAD rather than on site. They seem to enjoy the challenge of designing non-standard structures.

 

In defensive of the TF companies I'll give my "take" the markup of the TF companies:

1 hour ago, bissoejosh said:

Obviously the big advantage to this method is we don't pay any timber frame company markups. Judging by the quotes we received compared to our factory price these can be substantial, and for us would have taken a significant part of our budget.

 

The TF company in question is offering a package of which the frame design and production are a couple of parts. That package offers the self-builder the opportunity to de-risk substantial components of their build, including what I believe is +25 years experience of erecting more-or-less the same frame technology and developing a propriety erection process that delivers an air tightness substantially better than PassivHaus requirements. Taking this into account I believe the "mark-up" includes a whole lot more than just profit. Whether or not that seems to be good value will depend on whether a self-builder is capable of erecting the frame themselves or if they need to contract that portion out.

[bissoejosh]

6 minutes ago, IanR said:

The TF company in question is offering a package of which the frame design and production are a couple of parts. That package offers the self-builder the opportunity to de-risk substantial components of their build, including what I believe is +25 years experience of erecting more-or-less the same frame technology and developing a propriety erection process that delivers an air tightness substantially better than PassivHaus requirements. Taking this into account I believe the "mark-up" includes a whole lot more than just profit. Whether or not that seems to be good value will depend on whether a self-builder is capable of erecting the frame themselves or if they need to contract that portion out.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.  It was always an aim of our build for me to learn as much as possible, particularly with the framing where I have less experience. Getting a fully cut frame helps greatly and eliminates a hefty chunk of work. Having it drawn out in both 2&3D should also make a big difference.

[Thedreamer]

12 hours ago, bissoejosh said:

We've taken a slightly different approach which may be of interest. Our frame is being designed by an independent consultant who will produce a machine file that is sent to a factory for cutting. This is also signed off by a SE to satisfy reg requirements.

 

I believe that this is the same factory supplying at least one of the larger TF outfits. The end result should be a fully precision cut frame, supplied in stick build format for us to assemble ourselves or with local assistance if required. Obviously the big advantage to this method is we don't pay any timber frame company markups. Judging by the quotes we received compared to our factory price these can be substantial, and for us would have taken a significant part of our budget.

 

The consultant is also supplying a full set of assembly instructions including a 3D model that allow us to walk through the structure and take a closer look at joints or components if needed. For reference this is all being done with an i-Stud / Beam construction 245mm on the walls and 300mm for the roof.

 

Happy to provide more details if required / allowed...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your approach seems similar to the one we have adopted. Our plans have been designed by an independent consultant with a structural engineer involved to sign off for the building warrant. An open panel built offsite/onsite by a joiner was what I had pictured, but now considering whether a timber frame manufacturer providing a open panel structural kit might be a better option. I can see a number of benefits from using a closed panel system (insulation, air tightness, speed) but I guess all of this comes at a cost. I don't know if I am relatively young (31) as a self builder, but my budget is relatively modest and my principal aim is to build a fairly simple property that will be slightly above scottish building standards. 

[bissoejosh]

7 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

Your approach seems similar to the one we have adopted. Our plans have been designed by an independent consultant with a structural engineer involved to sign off for the building warrant. An open panel built offsite/onsite by a joiner was what I had pictured, but now considering whether a timber frame manufacturer providing a open panel structural kit might be a better option. I can see a number of benefits from using a closed panel system (insulation, air tightness, speed) but I guess all of this comes at a cost. I don't know if I am relatively young (31) as a self builder, but my budget is relatively modest and my principal aim is to build a fairly simple property that will be slightly above scottish building standards. 

 

I was much the same to begin with and initially planned SIPS for speed. This slowly changed and from researching a variety of different frame options I concluded that I wanted either a twin stud or i-Beam version if at all possible. This was down to several reasons but primarily because I wanted to spend what budget we had on the best building fabric we could afford. I also really dislike celotex/rigid insulation and wanted to hit decent U values whilst avoiding it if possible. If one of our local firms had been able to offer something other than a standard frame we might have taken a different route but they seem to very much like what they know.

 

Having had both preferred choices priced commercially they were outside our budget but a bit of research and a recommendation on here led me to Cullen timber who luckily specialize in this and are happy to work, as discussed with self builders who want to DIY it. I'm also 31 and my partner is younger & we're very much doing this on a shoestring. Luckily I'm self employed and live on site so doing work myself, around the day job, is where we can save money.

 

If anything I've spent too long worrying abut the details, at the end of the day it's fairly likely that a genuine self builder will want something decent for themselves and this alone will probably make the house better than the majority of housing stock. Plan ahead but don't get too bogged down would be my advice!