Another DIY 'plumber'

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

China plate @Nickfromwales come on son can't you speak cockney. 

Well....it's not too shabby seeing as I'm from Swansea. It's not exactly just down the frog and toad now, is it? ?

[JIH]

On 14/10/2017 at 09:01, Vijay said:

Just an idea, but why not buy a pipe bender and bend pipes where you can.

 

Also maybe use ones of these https://www.screwfix.com/p/solder-ring-full-cross-over-22mm/94381

 

Great idea - I shall have to investigate the pipe bender, thanks @Vijay.

 

But I will steer clear of the solder cross-over as the idea is not to use solder joints at all (as I can't solder).  Will have to try and take a leaf out of @Onoff's book and bend it over.

[JIH]

On 14/10/2017 at 11:17, JanetE said:

I also fitted dwangs to hold the pipes securely in place for the showers,taps and basins with the spacing exact for the fittings. I used hep20 elbows with copper tails for the fittings. The dwangs are great when you come to screw in the fittings as you don't need any kind of plug, screws in wood hold everything securely. We also made sure that we had dwangs in place for the basins, etc., saves so much time at the end of the build. We have just been fitting out two of our wetrooms, it's been really straightforward. 

 

Thanks @JanetE for the pics - very neat work!   If you fancied a trip north. . .

 

Did you increase the thickness of the wall behind the shower because of the plumbing?

 

Which toilets did you 'plumb' for?  I planning Duravit all round with the Stark 3 rimless toilet

 

Dwangs up here!

[JIH]

16 hours ago, Onoff said:

Not knocking soldered joints but I'd consider chucking in a few bends instead of soldered elbows. Lots more points of failure IMO. This (a tad OTT) guide gives loads of advice:

 

http://bpec.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BPEC-Essential-Plumbing-Skills-Copper-Pipefinal-version.pdf

 

My little attempt, bends where I could and a "saddle" too:

 

 

 

 

Thanks @Onoff, some useful stuff here for bending.  Nice saddle/crossover/passover

[JIH]

15 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

A saddle is a type of clip. 

That, my old China mug, is a "crossover".

?? 

 

 

Or a passover according to @Onoff's reference guide: http://bpec.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BPEC-Essential-Plumbing-Skills-Copper-Pipefinal-version.pdf

 

Perhaps it's similar to the dwang/noggin controversy and depends on your ancestry?

[JIH]

 

So does anybody have any concerns regarding my proposed system as above?  If not I'll get on and order lots of Hep2O fittings, copper pipe and maybe a bender...

 

I was thinking of taking off a feed from the pre-heat before the LPG water heater to feed the 10mm DHW manifold.  My thinking was that most of the time I could have warm water to WHB without the need to heat it up through the heater only to mix it down through the TMV.  However if I required hotter water than that of the thermal store (for those wet shavers) then I could shut off this feed and go through the mixer.

 

All input appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, JIH said:

 

Thanks @Onoff, some useful stuff here for bending.  Nice saddle/crossover/passover

 

Passover? Well, it all adds up & you've gotta save a penny or two!

 

 

[Vijay]

4 hours ago, JIH said:

 

Great idea - I shall have to investigate the pipe bender, thanks @Vijay.

 

But I will steer clear of the solder cross-over as the idea is not to use solder joints at all (as I can't solder).  Will have to try and take a leaf out of @Onoff's book and bend it over.

 

Why not teach yourself mate, pretty easy with Yorkshire fittings (solder ring) and a good torch. Clean the pipe till it's spotless, flux it and then solder

[JIH]

17 minutes ago, Vijay said:

 

Why not teach yourself mate, pretty easy with Yorkshire fittings (solder ring) and a good torch. Clean the pipe till it's spotless, flux it and then solder

Ummm. . .  You make it sound so easy 

[PeterW]

Believe it or not, it’s easier to do an end feed fitting than a solder ring ..!! Quite easy for a novice to overheat a solder ring and blow the solder out... 

 

Rothenberger or Bernzomatic torches aren’t cheap but will last a lifetime - I now only use MAPP gas too as it’s hotter and quicker but I also use them for lead welding.

 

Get yourself a handful of end feed fittings, some Laco flux and some copper offcuts and practice ..! Green kitchen scourers are the best for cleaning pipe too - make yourself an apprentice cube ...  

[PeterW]

... and get a decent pipe slice ..!! No hacksawing copper..!!

[Nickfromwales]

46 minutes ago, JIH said:

Ummm. . .  You make it sound so easy 

Stick to Hepworth . They're the next best thing to solder. 

Make tricky bends and crossover-passing-saddles with a pipe benders, and put a Hepworth fitting either side after it's bent / cut to size. 

A pipe bending machine will be your friend so try and grab a cheapo one or borrow one if you can. They're dead simple to use and I'll tell you how to pull different bends and sets. If your buying second hand, don't forget the guides / formers need to be with them, as a bender is useless on its own. ?

 

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Get yourself a handful of end feed fittings, some Laco flux and some copper offcuts and practice ..! Green kitchen scourers are the best for cleaning pipe too - make yourself an apprentice cube ...  

Why Laco? It's a monstrously strong acidic  flux for cleaning old corroded pipe, and I only use it now and then for jointing onto ancient pipe. 

I use Telux mild flux, and on new pipe and fittings it's more than ample, plus there's no horrible green rash everywhere after use, like you get with Laco. 

[PeterW]

I prefer Laco and then a proper wipe with a moleskin and I never seem to get a problem ..??

[JanetE]

@JIH  No didn't increase the thickness because of the shower, the bathroom backs on to that one, and although the Hep20 fittings are fatter than copper, they easily fit in the partition walls.  All of our toilets are Geberits so had to build out the framework to accommodate the frame and cistern.  

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by JanetE

[Nickfromwales]

The issue is what's left inside the pipe. With Laco you really need to flush everything well. For a quick experiment cover a new copper fitting in Laco and another in Telux and leave for 24hrs. The one in Laco will look like Kermit the Frog and the one in mild will look almost as it was when applied. That crud and green doom is doing exactly the same on the inside of the pipe, only you can't wipe that off with the rag . That's even worse if your not filling and flushing the same day as it's left inside to carry on oxidising.  

On new copper pipework and fittings Laco just isn't necessary as mild flux works perfectly.  @PeterW, give it a try. 

 

[JIH]

21 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Stick to Hepworth . They're the next best thing to solder. 

Make tricky bends and crossover-passing-saddles with a pipe benders, and put a Hepworth fitting either side after it's bent / cut to size. 

A pipe bending machine will be your friend so try and grab a cheapo one or borrow one if you can. They're dead simple to use and I'll tell you how to pull different bends and sets. If your buying second hand, don't forget the guides / formers need to be with them, as a bender is useless on its own. ?

 

 Yes I am a wee bit reluctant to use my house as a test of my soldering skills.  There is already enough to keep me awake at night...  The Hep2O looks pretty fool proof and being de-mountable should make fitting to the space easier, I hope.

 

I shall definitively  beg/borrow/steal a pipe bender, and thank you @Nickfromwales for you offer of how to drive it!

 

 

On 16/10/2017 at 03:54, JIH said:

 

So does anybody have any concerns regarding my proposed system as above?  If not I'll get on and order lots of Hep2O fittings, copper pipe and maybe a bender...

 

I was thinking of taking off a feed from the pre-heat before the LPG water heater to feed the 10mm DHW manifold.  My thinking was that most of the time I could have warm water to WHB without the need to heat it up through the heater only to mix it down through the TMV.  However if I required hotter water than that of the thermal store (for those wet shavers) then I could shut off this feed and go through the mixer.

 

All input appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

If the tails on the water heater are 1/2" and the DHW manifolds are 3/4" where should I make the reduction - at the heater or manifold for hot?  At the tank or heater for "cold"?

 

Thanks

[Nickfromwales]

All of the cold done in 22mm. Tee off with 22mm to get cold to the TS, and then 22mm from the TS preheat to the Rinnai heater reducing to 15mm at the inlet of the Rinnai. 

Whats the distance between the TS and the Rinnai?

[JIH]

14 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

All of the cold done in 22mm. Tee off with 22mm to get cold to the TS, and then 22mm from the TS preheat to the Rinnai heater reducing to 15mm at the inlet of the Rinnai. 

Whats the distance between the TS and the Rinnai?

 

@Nickfromwales that depends on the height of TS.  

• Option 1 - TS under half landing (tank <1100mm) distance to Rinnai = 2m in plan
• Option 2 - TS in utility room (tank >1100mm) distance to Rinnai ~ 1m in plan as heater on wall directly outside

Distance from heater to DHW manifold ~ 2m in plan.

 

Would much rather have tank under stairs if possible as utility room quite small.

 

Go from 15mm to 22mm at the outlet of the Rinnai?

 

Thanks.

[Nickfromwales]

23 minutes ago, JIH said:

Go from 15mm to 22mm at the outlet of the Rinnai?

No, leave it at 15mm. The reason for the 22mm to it is to give it every chance at producing the most DHW it can. Once it's produced it it'll be at a reduced rate that won't really benefit from being upsized to 22mm IMO, plus you'll have less delay between the heater and the manifold with 15mm so less wait at the taps. 

Remind me again why this unit is going outside ?

[JIH]

32 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

No, leave it at 15mm. The reason for the 22mm to it is to give it every chance at producing the most DHW it can. Once it's produced it it'll be at a reduced rate that won't really benefit from being upsized to 22mm IMO, plus you'll have less delay between the heater and the manifold with 15mm so less wait at the taps. 

Remind me again why this unit is going outside ?

 

Ok, understood.  However I was going to use the 3/4" Hep2O valved manifold fittings at the DHW manifold.  Ok to increase to 22 just before this?  

 

Rinnai outside as I've not allowed for flue in the build!  

 

Thanks

[Nickfromwales]

Why don't you just core drill for the flue? What's the construction ?

[Nickfromwales]

59 minutes ago, JIH said:

Ok to increase to 22 just before this?  

 

15mm copper to 3/4" male

 

15mm x 3/4" female

 

These take 15mm up to 3/4" at the manifold in one fitting . 

[JIH]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Why don't you just core drill for the flue? What's the construction ?

 

 I was trying to keep it simple - just run the pipes out through the hole in the wall with the ASHP pipes.  Construction: timber frame with 300mm pumped cellulose (MBC) but externally at this point clad with Knauf render board and rendered with K1.  Reluctant to cut flue sized hole through render and board.

 

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

These take 15mm up to 3/4" at the manifold in one fitting . 

 

I'm slowly learning.  But what does the "iron" signify with a copper fitting?  Is it to do with BSP parallel/tapered thread?

 

I take I need "irons" for joining to these?

 

But could possibly use these?

 

Apologies for all the questions, but my head hurts

 

Would you reckon one of these would do me for the thermal store?  Would the supplied coil be suitable as I would not be using for the purpose it was designed? I will be taking heat out rather than putting it in.  Or does the principle work fine vicky verky?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

If it's a Telford cylinder then go direct to Trevor @ Cylinders2go ( 07939 996940 ) and mention the forum   He'll "quote you happy" ?

I really think you should put the heater inside and just cut the flue hole. Having the heat loss from an LPG unit mounted externally is less than desirable, plus then you do away with the need, and ongoing draining and refreshment, of the antifreeze. Rethink that bit imo, and it'll reduce the pipe work too. 

Yes, the pushfit fittings you linked would be fine. I would use compression immediately around the manifolds though to make things more easily mountable / demountable. The 'iron' reference is just the name for the type of fitting, e.g. goes onto a BSP thread rather than tube, and are typically made from brass. 

For the same sort of money as the cylinder you linked you can get a stainless one from Telford. Lifetime warranty if serviced ( inspected ) annually. That would be an unvented UVC then, and come with all the necessary pressure reducing valves ( PRedV ) and pressure relief valves ( PRV's ), expansion vessel and an immersion heater for back up. The temperature and pressure relief valave will be on the uvc factory fitted too, so one less component to buy for the ashp circuit. Just add a filling loop and pressure gauge to the primary heating circuit and your good to go.