Spinny Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Plumber has just left a crimped join end exposed on the plumbing he is doing in my build. Photo attached. Measurements show that the external diameter of the connector is about 14mm and the internal diameter is 12mm (this is a connector on 16mm MLC pipe.) However as can be seen in the photo at the position of the pressed connector the internal bore is severely reduced - down to approximately 6.5mm internal bore. This is making me angry. How can this in any way be equivalent to 15mm copper pipe with an internal bore of around 13.5mm ? It is restricted to 6.5mm at every connection !? How can this be acceptable ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 52 minutes ago, Spinny said: This is making me angry. How can this in any way be equivalent to 15mm copper pipe with an internal bore of around 13.5mm ? It is restricted to 6.5mm at every connection !? How can this be acceptable The idea is there are are very few joints, the small diameter for a very short distance, although a pressure loss area in the grand scheme is very small. You would need to get the pressure table for the fitting and pipe and work it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 FFS Why should I have to do the plumbers job for him ? Why am I paying him ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 9 minutes ago, Spinny said: FFS Why should I have to do the plumbers job for him ? Why am I paying him ? Ask him for the pressure drop calc, get the facts, instead of assuming the world going end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 He hasn’t done a calculation since he left school. He is bullshitting me about G3, rarely turns up, leaves me with no heating for a whole winter, no sink, no w/machine for 14 months & counting. 2 leaks from his pipework, stole the old copper cylinder and pipes, radiators don’t heat up properly, lousy water flow. Best thing would be to pull his fingernails out and drill holes in his teeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuerteStu Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 My experience with this type of trady is to cut your losses and get someone better to finish the job. You'll only end up with more bad work if he's the one left to put his own work right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Sack him and get a proper plumber. If he can't do it now why will it get better - Why put up with it? As @FuerteStu says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 It’s the builders plumber and like most of the builders tradespeople is crap. I am 80 weeks into a 22 week single storey extension build. The problem is if I don’t keep holding the builder accountable for fixing most of his constant screw ups then I end up paying twice over. Still waiting on other plumber quotes and new pipes will mean taking glued & screwed floors up again. I am trapped in a living hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Send the builder an invoice for delays,leaks, stolen items or advise happy to let him utilise another plumber instead of payment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 4 hours ago, TonyT said: Send the builder an invoice for delays,leaks, stolen items or advise happy to let him utilise another plumber instead of payment The problem with builders is you don’t know what instructions they dictate to the tradesperson, or on what basis they employ them. I suspect the builder would instruct that no way is he lifting floors or replacing pipe. In other cases I suspect builder is using job and knock etc. Found out too late, Never, ever, ever, employ a builder. Their objectives are to screw maximum profit out for themselves. It isn’t their house so cheap materials, slap dash and hidden bodges are what they want. Every shortcut is more money for them. Cheaper tradespeople make them more money, you still pay the same for shoddy work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andehh Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Went through simular with our builder's sparky... Cost us over £10k in overcharges, bullshit and inflated costs. Didn't realise until his 'late invoices' turned up, and by then it was too late. I know your pain, but if it's any consolation it's a memory from 12 months ago and one you do get over! If you're going through hell.... Keep going! There's an end to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 So I have: 1/ Downstairs rads piped with press fit connectors 2/ Upstairs rads piped with copper Two downstairs rads won heat up properly. Impossible to achieve all 4 rads up to temp. Plumber failed to solve by rebalancing twice. On 3rd visit he has tried to con me by turning up the boiler temp to 65 when I wasn’t looking. Upstairs rads now reach 64 and pretty scalding hot. Press fit connectors/pipe clearly restrict flow and are crap. Now a major problem as floors will need to be destructively removed. I also have flow problems on the UVC where the pressure falls from 3bar to 1.4bar when a tap is turned on. This despite supply being 3.5bar and 20l/m. Again supply is linked to cylinder via 25mm MLC pipe and press fit connectors. Again the connectors must be choking off the flow with their restricted bore. Press fit inc MLC pipe is not fit for purpose (perhaps unless oversized). Is there any way to connect this pipe without using press fit restricted bore connectors ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 On 25/03/2024 at 12:49, Spinny said: Never, ever, ever, employ a builder. Their objectives are to screw maximum profit out for themselves. It isn’t their house so cheap materials, slap dash and hidden bodges are what they want. Every shortcut is more money for them. Cheaper tradespeople make them more money, you still pay the same for shoddy work. Whilst I feel sorry for you and your situation which is very wrong, not all builders are like this, I had a brilliant builder and no complaints at all, it was not luck I searched using customers recommendations to find him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 23 minutes ago, joe90 said: Whilst I feel sorry for you and your situation which is very wrong, not all builders are like this, I had a brilliant builder and no complaints at all, it was not luck I searched using customers recommendations to find him. going off topic i guess but most of my build was "ok from the outside", but look closely and its been like a shoot-out at the OK Corral with a nail gun. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 Ok, but I’m not a complete idiot, I read the ‘5*’ reviews, visited and spoke to 2 other customers, and had multiple pre contract meetings. The reality is many customers wouldn’t have a clue whether their builder is doing things properly or badly. They are out at work or housewives etc with zero building/trades knowledge. Therefore their excellent reviews are in reality worthless. Builders carefully curate their refs and websites, concealing their unhappy customers and bad jobs. In my experience they lie to their customers frequently. Ive already had another builder promise help and then renege before starting. People don’t turn up, gaslight for months over providing a quote, even block your calls. They turn up ‘first thing’ at 9:30 and ‘work late’ until 3pm. No doubt there are good honest builders and tradies out there somewhere. IMO the industry needs major reform to stop the cowboys, incompetents, and ‘get rich quick with a limited company shell’ merchants. And before the victim blaming gets going, I expect some issues, pay my bills, and support in many ways. Rant over. Can you join MLC without using press fit ‘strangulation’ connectors ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 22 minutes ago, Super_Paulie said: going off topic i guess but most of my build was "ok from the outside", but look closely and its been like a shoot-out at the OK Corral with a nail gun. They can’t wait to board and skim over things before the customer can say why are there untested pipe joints in my wall, and red bull cans and vapes in my wall cavity. Most customers won’t even have a spirit level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 13 minutes ago, Spinny said: Can you join MLC without using press fit ‘strangulation’ connectors ? Yes they have two types I think, both really press connectors just like JG, and others, stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Spinny said: They can’t wait to board and skim over things before the customer can say why are there untested pipe joints in my wall, and red bull cans and vapes in my wall cavity. Most customers won’t even have a spirit level. I have to say that i did spend a fair amount of time pulling tab ends and cigarette boxes out of my cavity wall. I was getting built to shell so everything was left exposed and yeah, average would be a really at best description. Edited April 29 by Super_Paulie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuerteStu Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 The bin test for tradesman Provide a metal bin in their work area and give them a day's work, telling them they're is a bin for their rubbish etc.. If the bin is empty at the end of the day, they don't get to come back. I will not tolerate people who leave half full cans of Monster everywhere. Zero respect for the client will haunt you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Paulie Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 5 minutes ago, FuerteStu said: The bin test for tradesman Provide a metal bin in their work area and give them a day's work, telling them they're is a bin for their rubbish etc.. If the bin is empty at the end of the day, they don't get to come back. I will not tolerate people who leave half full cans of Monster everywhere. Zero respect for the client will haunt you. not easy to get confrontational with a builder though, id imagine it would be stressful to the point most wouldnt bother. I guess thats why you pay for a contractor rather than a hairy ars-d builder. If i could go back then thats the route id likely have went down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 So went out today and bought one of the 25mm press fittings the plumber has used to terminate his MLC pipe run between mains and cylinder. It provides a tail to fit onto 22mm copper. The ID of 22mm copper pipe is 20.2mm. That is an internal cross sectional area of 320.5 sqmm. The ID of the press fitting is just 14mm ! That is an internal cross sectional area of just 153.9 sqmm. LESS THAN HALF A 22MM COPPER PIPE! Don’t let your plumber fit this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted April 30 Author Share Posted April 30 It’s gone quiet. Any plumbers going to comment ? How would I calculate the flow through say 4m of 25mm MLC pipe choked down to 14mm diameter at either end ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) oops Edited April 30 by dpmiller delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 4 minutes ago, Spinny said: How would I calculate the flow through say 4m of 25mm MLC pipe choked down to 14mm diameter at either end ? Not a plumber but easy enough. 1. Calculate pipe pressure drop, plenty of online tools for that. Just use the internal dia. and length. Internal dia isn't going to much different from 22mm Hep2O so you could use that as a reference. 2. Basically do the same again for the fitting at each end, but obviously a much shorter length. 3. Add the results together, covert meters of head loss. You will be surprised how little the small bore fittings make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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