Main dwelling and outbuilding

[Zak S]

43 minutes ago, ETC said:

While a fire engineered solution may be acceptable to BC having the kitchen open to the floors above is - in my opinion - dangerous. Consider a scenario where smoke from a fire on the ground floor rises - the parents are in their bedroom and the children are in theirs. All rooms have fire escape windows but a parent will always want to get to their children in an emergency and this could mean entering a smoke filled hallway.

There is a possibility of fire curtain system which can counter the issue of smoke spreading through the hall but understand the additional costs.. Have seen one in the office but not sure if with that installed the requirement of mist system might disappear so net cost might become manageable. 

[ETC]

Getting very contrived.

[Zak S]

2 hours ago, ETC said:

Getting very contrived.

That is true; in order to keep the open plan, feature staircase/gallery view plus double height ceiling in the living room, not sure if there are any other solution but will be keen to learn about. 

 

[Zak S]

Please help if you can!

 

Have received amended plans and bit heart broken to see loss of space due to addition of fire escape route on all three floors also giving house very commercial feel. The fire engineered solution would be expensive with fire curtain to be most expensive. Fire escape route however does not deal with smoke issue to the left wing of the house so not sure if it is going to work in any case. 

 

Any thoughts as to what could be done to make the design fire safe without fire engineered solution or dedicated second staircase while allowing the light to spread from south facing front to north facing rear. 

 

Happy to lose the curve staircase but wanted to keep gallery feel and double height ceilings.

[Alan Ambrose]

Can I just check where you are..

 

- was the extra staircase your architect's solution?

- are the mist / curtain options not 'a fire engineered solution'?

- can you give the rough cost of each option please? (I may have a similar problem) - I'm surprised the fire curtain is expensive.

 - is it an option to speak to an actual fire engineer?

[Zak S]

11 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Can I just check where you are..

 

- was the extra staircase your architect's solution?

- are the mist / curtain options not 'a fire engineered solution'?

- can you give the rough cost of each option please? (I may have a similar problem) - I'm surprised the fire curtain is expensive.

 - is it an option to speak to an actual fire engineer?

Yes. The extra staircase is the fire escape route from the second floor and was proposed as a way to counter potential fire engineered solution involving fire suppression system/sprinklers/fire curtains (fire curtain being the most expensive option. I have not had any quotes on the fire curtain but it seems to be around £2.5k per sqm based on quick google search and we will need to have c50sqm for first and second floor. So yes based on this it will be extremely expensive. Might need to speak with company to get a quote.

 

Your suggestion to speak with actual fire engineer is good one. I might try that.

 

I was thinking if there are any clever design modification which can be done to counter the issue I have?

Edited May 15, 2024 by Zak S

[Zak S]

@Alan AmbroseHad a chat with a supplier and was told 4-6k per curtain. They can do 10x6m which might be slightly more expensive.  I think the key is to get through BCO so might be worth having a chat with BCO Initially to get their view (someone helpfully suggested earlier).

[Zak S]

Also please could the helpful readers provide the feedback on the option of using combination of charred timber plus zinc/aluminium shingles on the left v only charred timber based on the pics below.

 

3d render of charred timber all round seems better but it might be just because it's 3d view but it reality the addition of shingle might give a bit of character. Please also note the difference in porch glazing in the two pictures.

 

I am also considering the idea of cladding only on thr front and might cover the sides with render or brick due to cost conisderation. Thoughts on that would also be welcome.

[Zak S]

22 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

rough cost

8.2mx6.3m cost = £23k

Supply & Install

[Zak S]

So far we have had three quotes of fire curtain. Fire Curtains seems very expensive and low in terms of value add compared to ptotected fire escape staircase. The plan image above with protected fire escape staircase seems to be best option and still give us decent amount of space. 

 

We have visited few projects with gallery views and open plan living space as well as dual height ceilings.  These buildings are way above standard houses in terms of wow factor. Overall we are quite happy with the concept and the design. 

 

Many thanks to everyone here for highlighting very important points. These have been of great help.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Zak S

[Mr Punter]

Fire curtain is mental for a dwelling.  OK for commercial, like on an escalator for a high end retail store.

[Zak S]

Posting an update: we applied planning permission and 6/7 neighbours pooled together to and filed objection including one hiring a planning consultant 😂. We were asked to withdraw the application due to inconsistent material choices (term used: not inline with vernacular of the street) which on the street mainly consist of bricks, render and few tudor styles architecture). Also point raised about mass was significantly higher than immediate neighbours plus the roof height 2m higher than immediate neighbour.

 

We have to reduce the mass / ridge height. I have no clue as to what the mass is. I am flexible in terms of reducing the ridgebheight by around one meter so as not to sacrifice the loft space. The issue is we are not really extending the existing footprint significantly actually reducing it by taking down the log store of 1.25m width so I am not sure how can I reduce the mass if we are building on existing foot print unless we choose to not build on parts of it.

 

Any ways back to drawing boards to look at ridge height, material choices (possibly dropping charred timber and shingles as been told it makes the house dominant) and mass so any advice on the deisgn and material choices would be much appreciated e.g would you suggest dropping the idea of double height ceiling hall and living room, curve stair case, bridge etc.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[Iceverge]

With neighbours like that who needs enemies. 

[JamesP]

An extension to a bungalow.

Mass = Volume.

The footprint looks about 50% larger than the original. Your loft space is a second floor. Ridge height relative to neighbouring properties?

Your neighbours and planners are correct but carry on, you will get there.

[Zak S]

7 hours ago, JamesP said:

An extension to a bungalow.

Mass = Volume.

The footprint looks about 50% larger than the original. Your loft space is a second floor. Ridge height relative to neighbouring properties?

Your neighbours and planners are correct but carry on, you will get there.

There are so many precedents where ridge height for new development are higher than immediate neighbours including one right in front of my house (newly build) by aprox 1m. Other examples are in some cases two meter higher.

 

One of the point raised was that loft makes it three storey. But looking at the precedent on the street these either opposit of 5 houses away please see attached. First image is that of proposed as per my planning application. But the rest are neighbouring. 

 

What should be the key amendments?

 

 

[Zak S]

Some other examples in the area which highlight the mass and the design approach v neighbours.

 

My architect thinks that planning officer chickened out due to various objections but to some extent I take it as a positive that we have a opportunity to better the design and material choice. I don't want to be limited to immediate neighbours in terms of Mass and ridge height and need some flexibility there. Otherwise application is decided on the basis of what neighbours had done rather than on its own merit (within reasonable limits) and ignores the precedents in the neighbourhood. First image (the middle property) used to be banglow and they obtained householder permission for building up/extension and loft space so similar to my application 

 

Edited March 18 by Zak S

[JamesP]

Morning @Zak S, Thanks for the reply and images, they really help your application in context to existing properties.

I think your architect is correct and knows how to proceed and in time the planners will grant permission.

My own application took nearly 6 years without any objections, awkward planning officer and in a National Park.

 

[Iceverge]

There is two real reasons that all the neighbours objected. 

 

1. It's higher and appears more massive than their houses.

2. It's an ugly Frankenstein. with bad proportions and an ungodly mess of materials. 

 

You are the guy turning up to the classic car meeting in a Monster truck covered in LEDs and blaring speakers. 

 

You need to read the room before you apply again and try to fit in rather than bending the world to fit your will. You could fight it legally but I'm guessing those houses are full of bored spouses who would love a cause to rally behind and have the lawyers and cash to delay you for 10 years. 

 

For the millionth time demolish and build fresh. This is a multi million £ house.  

Incorporate a basement and drop the ridge height to about 8.5m to match the house to the left of yours. 

 

Give you architect some more breathing space and see what they come up with. 

[Tony L]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

 

You are the guy turning up to the classic car meeting in a Monster truck covered in LEDs and blaring speakers. 

 

 

Good analogy.  @Iceverge talks a lot of sense, as usual.  My own experience was that the council didn't take too much notice of the neighbours' objections, so it was just the planning dept I needed to work on.  Eventually, I was able to wear them down & achieve PP for something that was worth building.  Once I had PP, I was able to bolt on a little extra something, via a non-material amendment application, that I had removed from one of my original designs, as part of the compromise arrangement to achieve PP.  The planning dept were more concerned about the ridge height than any of the many other aspects of my design that they didn't want.  I chopped the top off my pitched roof design - so I have two ridges, with a long flat roof in between.  It will still look like a conventional house when viewed from the street/driveway entrance & the house still has good depth - just an idea you may be able to use.

 

Achieving PP can be a frustrating & lengthy process, but I'm sure you'll have something you're really happy with by the time you finally get there.

[Zak S]

4 minutes ago, Tony L said:

chopped the top off my pitched roof design - so I have two ridges, with a long flat roof in between

I had suggested this the architect but from his architectural point of view the pitched roof has a better visual than pitched with flat on the top and it seems sensible.

[Zak S]

2 hours ago, Iceverge said:

You are the guy turning up to the classic car meeting in a Monster truck covered in LEDs and blaring speakers. 

Thanks. Yes great analogy! The question is how does one achieve a unique design. I agree that material choices are in outlandish (ie combining charred timber with metal shingles).

 

How best to simplify material choices? Light coloured bricks and Render? Would you suggest zinc roof instead of slate/tiles. What feature would make it stand out in nice unique way or totally redraw the design?

 

Possible my fault as I had asked him to take the design influence based on Contemporary and combine with  Arts and Crafts. Not sure if these two can be combined.

Edited March 18 by Zak S

[JamesP]

3 hours ago, Iceverge said:

2. It's an ugly Frankenstein. with bad proportions and an ungodly mess of materials. 

Great advice from @Iceverge and @Tony L.  You said what I was thinking but would seem to compliment some of the other surrounding properties!

 

 

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, Zak S said:

Contemporary and combine with  Arts and Crafts

 

Cool a design brief. Maybe a pro like @ETC will be along shortly. 

 

I googled Arts and crafts and have spent a total of 10 minutes studying it.  Are you sure this is the style you are after?

 

The standout features for me are:

1. They look like they're made from a child's box of wooden building blocks. Triangles, rectangles and semicircles all prominent. 
2. Materially they're true to the crafts movement, Zinc roofing, metal railings and huge prominent glass walls are a nono. 
3. This follows that clay tiles or thatch for the roof. Stone, brick or render for the walls or even mock tudor style and stout heavily timbered windows. 
4. Features like steeply sloped roofs rising from low all the ways to the apex are common as well as, round towers, elaborate chimneys and prominent off central gables. 
5. Symmetry isn't that usual.
6. Wilder cottage style gardens are normal, often bordering right up to the house. 
7.  

Here are some modern examples that i like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course these awkward shapes would be an expensive nightmare to build to high levels of water protection,  insulation and airtightness but that is a difference argument altogether.  

 

Edited March 18 by Iceverge

[Zak S]

@Icevergethats very helpful. I am aware that arts and craft can be a pain to build hence wanted to simplify that but bringing both contemporary and arts and craft together. I think idea of shingles comes from on one side come for that. But if it's difficult to combine then might just go one way or the other.

[Zak S]

Would something similar would do the job. I have L shaped footprint and want to keep it.