Use your car as a battery?

[Andehh]

6 hours ago, Originaltwist said:

Don't forget though that more vehicles already support V2L ... like a 3kW mains supply behind the front seats .... and you don't need an expensive charger for that.

@Andehh - any suggestions for a suitable second hand EV with the right battery please.

 

Any new EV launched in the last couple of years would fall into my catagory of 'battery will last longer then rest of vehicle', especially if the battery was designed and developed within that time period. LFP batteries last longer then NMC type, but are cheaper, lower range, slower charging etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20 by Andehh

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, AliG said:

The EV9 and I think the new Volvo EX90/Polestar 3 say they have V2G technology included. I assume this means that they have a DC inverter which can take energy from the battery and send it back to the grid. They then use this to provide V2L, I was being overly brief in what I was typing

Not sure if thats what youre suggesting but V2L doesn't include sending power to the grid.

[Roger440]

13 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Maybe to stop a coal fired power station from starting up, or remove the threat of blackouts, or keep a gas power station on peaktime standby rather than running, or store some wind generated leccy rather than turn turbines off. Whole host of reasons when you look at the bigger picture, in addition to free charging

 

Sorting out coal fired power stations is the job of government, not individuals.

 

If blackouts become a thing, then i will be having a battery etc. But i sure wont be sharing it with the grid. If ive got to spend that money to keep the lights on, ill be keepiing my lights on thanks.

 

[Roger440]

10 hours ago, markharro said:

 

 

Your car has a battery with about twice the capacity of for example a Tesla powerwall but for about half the price. Is it worth buying just to station permanently in the drive as a battery for the house? What I don't understand however is whether it would be compatible with our three-phase connection and whether we would need any further kit other than the specialist charger which seems to be currently unavailable and quite expensive?

 

 

A question ive asked myself several times. In principle it seems sound. But seems to fall over due to the cost of everything else aside from the car.

 

I am still kicking myself for not getting one of the Maxus T90 EV pickups. In December, to get rid, they dumped them for either £20k or £150 a month, no deposit. It dropped further to a best deal of £51 a month. Over 2 years.

 

Yes, they are shockingly bad vehicles, and pointless too, but they do come with an 80kWh battery pack. I believe someone may have bought one just for the battery pack!

 

When those 2 year leases run out, the whole lot will get dumped on the second hand market in a very short 3 month window (1000 cars approx). They may well, at that stage make excellent battery fodder! 

 

[Kelvin]

4 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Not sure if thats what youre suggesting but V2L doesn't include sending power to the grid.

The Hyundai E-GMP platform has the capability to do V2G as there is/was a project to use a fleet of Ioniq 5s in The Netherlands to provide power to homes. However I’m sure I read these had been adapted to be able to do this. The V2L feature it does have is very handy and I’m surprised more EVs don’t offer it. Our Ioniq 5 has provided power at our plot before we had a mains supply and during power cuts. 

[AliG]

11 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Not sure if thats what youre suggesting but V2L doesn't include sending power to the grid.

That’s not what I said.

 

I said that these cars claim to have V2G capability. If you have V2G capability then the  equipment necessary to provide that can probably be used to provide their V2L capability.

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, AliG said:

 If you have V2G capability then the  equipment necessary to provide that can probably be used to provide their V2L capability.

AFAIK they are different things with differing kit, other than a connection to the battery/BMS.

 

V2G compatibilty means the vehicle has a DC connector to allow an external inverter to draw power from the battery, via a CCS or Chademo connector.

 

V2L is an on board AC supply where the vehicle has its own on board inverter to provide a local AC supply

[Dillsue]

11 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Sorting out coal fired power stations is the job of government, not individuals.

The only thing governments can do is mandate that we pay taxes and spend those taxes or mandate that we behave in certain ways. I'd prefer they didn't have to unnecessarily do either.

 

Having recognised there's a problem it's probably far easier for consumers to sort out the problems their consumption causes, in the case of this thread by cutting peak demand by allowing free eleccy to be returned to the grid when needed.

 

Not sure if there was any government involvement but Octopus seem to have worked out a way to help with the problem

[Square Feet]

My Very Clever Friend who understands these things tells me that all Chademo vehicles have V2G capacity.

[JamesPa]

51 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

The only thing governments can do is mandate that we pay taxes and spend those taxes or mandate that we behave in certain ways. I'd prefer they didn't have to unnecessarily do either.

 

Having recognised there's a problem it's probably far easier for consumers to sort out the problems their consumption causes, in the case of this thread by cutting peak demand by allowing free eleccy to be returned to the grid when needed.

 

Not sure if there was any government involvement but Octopus seem to have worked out a way to help with the problem

Agreed.  We all have a part to play in making the world work well, we cannot just say 'its someone else's problem'.  

 

Once we get to the point where a large number of people (eventually it will be most) have one or more 60kWh batteries sitting on their front drive doing nothing most of the time, its a bit of a no-brainer that these should, if reasonably possible, be used for grid balancing. 

 

The principal challenges are working out how to ensure that they are charged when needed for transport, and incentivising users to make them available to the grid.  Octopus are at least having a go.  Its very, very early days for this technology but it clearly hat the potential to sort out a significant part of our (shared) grid balancing challenge.

Edited February 21 by JamesPa

[Originaltwist]

16 hours ago, Andehh said:

 

Any new EV launched in the last couple of years would fall into my catagory of 'battery will last longer then rest of vehicle', especially if the battery was designed and developed within that time period. LFP batteries last longer then NMC type, but are cheaper, lower range, slower charging etc.

 

Thanks for that. I'll be having a look round the Kia/Hyundai marque with V2L. Some questions for the team arise;

Could I have a separate battery driven house circuit that doesn't back feed the grid and doesn't need any permissions. So the mains could charge the battery if needed but nothing in reverse.

There's already a back feed preventing trip (Enphase for example) so would that do instead.

Should it have a static battery as well as the occasional V2L hook up.

I suspect the multiple in/out connections of the Victron Quattro-II might make this work but I need a deeper study.

With so much storage to hand I can see a house running entirely on off-peak power. Divide by 3 with heat pumps and it all gets rather interesting.

 

16 hours ago, Andehh said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Originaltwist]

Try again

Thanks for that. I'll be having a look round the Kia/Hyundai marque with V2L. Some questions for the team arise;

Could I have a separate battery driven house circuit that doesn't back feed the grid and doesn't need any permissions. So the mains could charge the battery if needed but nothing in reverse.

There's already a back feed preventing trip (Enphase for example) so would that do instead.

Should it have a static battery as well as the occasional V2L hook up. I.e solar storage works while you go shopping.

I suspect the multiple in/out connections of the Victron Quattro-II might make this work but I need a deeper study.

With so much storage to hand I can see a house running entirely on off-peak power. Divide by 3 with heat pumps and it all gets rather interesting.

[JamesPa]

17 minutes ago, Originaltwist said:

Try again

Thanks for that. I'll be having a look round the Kia/Hyundai marque with V2L. Some questions for the team arise;

Could I have a separate battery driven house circuit that doesn't back feed the grid and doesn't need any permissions. So the mains could charge the battery if needed but nothing in reverse.

There's already a back feed preventing trip (Enphase for example) so would that do instead.

Should it have a static battery as well as the occasional V2L hook up. I.e solar storage works while you go shopping.

I suspect the multiple in/out connections of the Victron Quattro-II might make this work but I need a deeper study.

With so much storage to hand I can see a house running entirely on off-peak power. Divide by 3 with heat pumps and it all gets rather interesting.

Note that V2L and V2G are not the same thing.  V2L is not grid-synchronised whereas V2G is.  Be careful to check that anything you do choose can actually do what you want.  

 

Its clearly possible in principle to separate your house from the grid, but I don't know what, if any, equipment offers it in a way that is permitted.  One underlying issue here is that the grid operator needs to be absolutely sure that, when it cuts the power so its employees can work safely, someone isn't feeding power in from downstream.  That results in tight regulation.

Edited February 21 by JamesPa

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, Originaltwist said:

Could I have a separate battery driven house circuit that doesn't back feed the grid and doesn't need any permissions. So the mains could charge the battery if needed but nothing in reverse.

 

Yes you can, so long as there's no chance your batteries inverter can connect to the grid. If a grid connection is possible then you need to comply with all the DNO/ENA specs.

 

1 hour ago, Originaltwist said:

There's already a back feed preventing trip (Enphase for example) so would that do instead.

?? You've already got this?? There's plenty of systems that will island you house so it can run autonomously from the grid

 

1 hour ago, Originaltwist said:

 

Should it have a static battery as well as the occasional V2L hook up. I.e solar storage works while you go shopping.

You can't hook up V2L to anything connected to the grid. V2L is for powering a drill from your car or powering camping lights/telly. Its for anything mains powered when youve got no grid power but can use the cars battery to provide the power. If you can reliably island your house from the grid then you could use V2L to power the house but only up to the load that your cars V2L is rated for. Youre not likely to be able to run an ASHP/elec shower etc so it wouldn't be Business as usual

[AliG]

4 hours ago, Dillsue said:

AFAIK they are different things with differing kit, other than a connection to the battery/BMS.

 

V2G compatibilty means the vehicle has a DC connector to allow an external inverter to draw power from the battery, via a CCS or Chademo connector.

 

V2L is an on board AC supply where the vehicle has its own on board inverter to provide a local AC supply

Well looks like I was wrong.

 

I was assuming that as some cars offering V2L also offered V2G that they were using the onboard charger/inverter for both.

I eventually found this article https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1140803_2024-kia-ev9-bidirectional-charging-here-s-how-it-will-work

 

This agrees with what you have said, the V2G functionality allows the separate charger/inverter to bypass the onboard charger and connect direct to the battery using DC then converts this to AC.

 

The article suggests that this Qasar 2 might cost around $6000 because of this. It is not clear to me why it should be so expensive when solar inverters cost less than £1000.

 

I was hoping they would be able to use the car’s inverter to keep the cost down as this is already being used to convert DC to AC for the V2L capability. As you say this would still need management to meet the DNO specs and maybe they have decided it is easier to separate it totally from the car due to the multitude of utilities it could be connected to around the world.

[Kelvin]

It’s the ICCU (Integrated Charge Control Unit) in the E-GMP platform (that your EV9 is built on) that allows bi-directional charging. 
 

This is the article I referenced above about the pilot in The Netherlands. Elsewhere it said the I5s were slightly modified to support V2G. Therefore it’s reasonable to assume the E-GMP platform cars have the underlying technology to do it. It’s worth noting that Hyundai (and Kia) have had some problems with the ICCU requiring replacement in many cases. Ours was replaced for example. 

 

https://www.hyundai.news/eu/articles/stories/how-bidirectional-charging-can-power-your-world.html

[Originaltwist]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

Yes you can, so long as there's no chance your batteries inverter can connect to the grid. If a grid connection is possible then you need to comply with all the DNO/ENA specs.

 

?? You've already got this?? There's plenty of systems that will island you house so it can run autonomously from the grid

 

You can't hook up V2L to anything connected to the grid. V2L is for powering a drill from your car or powering camping lights/telly. Its for anything mains powered when youve got no grid power but can use the cars battery to provide the power. If you can reliably island your house from the grid then you could use V2L to power the house but only up to the load that your cars V2L is rated for. Youre not likely to be able to run an ASHP/elec shower etc so it wouldn't be Business as usual

Aha  But if the V2L is fed to a domestic battery via the generator connection on a Quattro-II then there is no additoonal hazard and no phase conflict. I get that it's a bit weedy, but not by much and an amperage limiting relay could bring on the mains if required... trying to get towards a solution here.

[Kelvin]

You could do that yes. The E-GMP based cars can charge other EVs for example. 

[Dillsue]

4 hours ago, Originaltwist said:

Aha  But if the V2L is fed to a domestic battery via the generator connection on a Quattro-II then there is no additoonal hazard and no phase conflict. I get that it's a bit weedy, but not by much and an amperage limiting relay could bring on the mains if required... trying to get towards a solution here.

Sounds plausible, but to be clear that's not V2L connected to the grid as its running through what's likely a G98/G99 certified device.

[Dillsue]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

I was hoping they would be able to use the car’s inverter to keep the cost down as this is already being used to convert DC to AC for the V2L capability. As you say this would still need management to meet the DNO specs and maybe they have decided it is easier to separate it totally from the car due to the multitude of utilities it could be connected to around the world.

Yes, if the full V2G functionality was built into the car then they'd need differing cars for most countries due to diverse grid connection specs. But that could be something configurable as it is with PV inverters.

 

Unless limited to 16A to meet G98 limits they'd likely also need an export meter connecting to the car so it starts getting complicated and easier for the manufacturers just to make the cars V2G/H ready but leaving the external bi directional charger to do the grid/car BMS interfacing.

 

 

[Roger440]

13 hours ago, Dillsue said:

The only thing governments can do is mandate that we pay taxes and spend those taxes or mandate that we behave in certain ways. I'd prefer they didn't have to unnecessarily do either.

 

Having recognised there's a problem it's probably far easier for consumers to sort out the problems their consumption causes, in the case of this thread by cutting peak demand by allowing free eleccy to be returned to the grid when needed.

 

Not sure if there was any government involvement but Octopus seem to have worked out a way to help with the problem

 

The government should be ensuring the infrastructure is capable of the demands placed upon it. Not me. Not sure why i should be covering (and funding) their incompetence?

 

Theres not a chance i will allow the government, and by extension an electricity company, to decide they are taking my power. Because they simply cannot be trusted not to change the rules of the game after you have spent the money.

 

I shall focus on being as self sufficent as i can, whilst remaing connected to the grid.

 

[Kelvin]

7 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

The government should be ensuring the infrastructure is capable of the demands placed upon it. Not me. Not sure why i should be covering (and funding) their incompetence?

 

Theres not a chance i will allow the government, and by extension an electricity company, to decide they are taking my power. Because they simply cannot be trusted not to change the rules of the game after you have spent the money.

 

I shall focus on being as self sufficent as i can, whilst remaing connected to the grid.

 

I agree in principle and self-sufficiency is my primary goal. However as we generate more of our electricity using renewables there are periods where we have over capacity so storing that somewhere is a desirable thing to do. Using the batteries in EVs that spend most of their time parked at home seems a reasonable to me. 

[SteamyTea]

One of the problems is that car usage is a very individual thing.  Most days I drive between 30 and 50 miles, so the car is stationary for 22 hours or so.

But take yesterday, I drove 660 miles, so the car was stationary for about 11 hours.

Today I may drive 30 miles or so, maybe 60.

Ideally I need two very different cars.  A small 'city' type car and a larger 'cruiser' (I know very well that I could drive 660 miles in a small car, but some comfort is needed, I used to do the journey in an original Suzuki Swift and a Corsa Automatic, but I am 20 years older now).

In some ways what is needed in Urban and semi rural areas is car hire businesses that follow a similar business model that these electric bike high businesses have.  The bikes are left in certain places around the town (Harbour Car Park in PZ, top of hill in Mousehole), you register and then just take a bike.

At least with a car share scheme you would not get complete (expletive deleted) ignoring all the rules of the road like the you do with the bikes/scooters, but that is another issue.

The main thing that people want from a car is instant accesses and ability to do the journey they want, when they want.  This is why we own our own cars, the problem is that it is now getting expensive to do so (though still cheaper than 40 years ago).

So while V2G seems like a great idea in principle, I don't see it as an effective solution to grid storage, a quick look at the electrical grid usage patterns will show that higher demand times coincide with 'rush hours'.  From an energy saving point of view, it is silly to add in and extra 100 kg of battery storage to a vehicle to either supply the grid or be used for that extra long journey.  Swapping vehicles is the better method, though fraught with problems (I lost my driving glasses in my own car, and would hate to leave my fags behind for someone else to enjoy).

I like to keep things simple, if you need home electrical storage, install just that, if you want an EV as a low mileage run about, buy one, if you need a car that is capable of driving 800 miles in a day, buy one that can do that.

Let the energy companies and the DNOs worry about fitting storage, it is a better usage of 'investors' cash than hoping that independent drivers are willing to share their expensive resources.

The government could also put a price cap on independent EV charging, some are expecting 85p/kWh, which after charging and delivery looses is £1/kWh, which makes driving a diesel car cheaper, more flexible, and easier.  It does make me wonder if we will get people that think their EVs will run better on different suppliers electricity, it still makes me smile when people will only fill up their cars at a Shell or BP garage, but never a Tesco (which is actually an ESSO managed business).  I notice that when I open my fuel filler flap there is a note that says 'Ford recommends BP fuel'.  I have not seen a BP garage where I live for years, I am sure there is one.

Just had a quick look.

I have a new term now, 'The BP Line', it is between Wadebridge and St. Awful.

[dpmiller]

^ can't disagree with @SteamyTea. It's why I reckon PHEVs are the way to go, and look forward to some slightly smaller examples hitting the market some day.

Quick shopping trip/ commute? Battery power. Easy overnight slow recharge.

Going on holidays/ away to see the inlaws etc? A nice clean ICE run in it's best efficiency zone.

 

but the current strategy seems to be to make cars as expensive and feature-laden as possible to hide the cost difference of the hybrid and electric gubbins.

[Dillsue]

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

The government should be ensuring the infrastructure is capable of the demands placed upon it. Not me. Not sure why i should be covering (and funding) their incompetence?

There's grid scale battery storage being rolled across the country to store renewables and help with the peak demand so you're already funding that through taxes and levies on your energy bills. Battery production has massive environmental impact so its ridiculous for the first world to have thousands of EV batteries sat doing nothing for most of the time when they could be productively utilised to reduce the amount of dedicated battery storage being installed.

 

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Theres not a chance i will allow the government, and by extension an electricity company, to decide they are taking my power. 

It's not your power. If you read the link in the first post Octopus are going to charge your battery for free and take back SOME of it at peak times. Net result is you get some free energy in return for helping society keep the lights on.

9 hours ago, Roger440 said:

I shall focus on being as self sufficent as i can, whilst remaing connected to the grid

If you are wanting a grid connection then why the obvious objection to helping society run a serviceable supply?