Marvin Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Further developments in ASHPs Higher output temperatures and greater efficiency achieved using new refrigerants. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67511954 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Nice to see some positive press for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 The point that is so frequently brushed aside is actually quoted in the article Quote Vaillant's aroTHERM plus heat pump works in outdoor temperatures as low as -20C and can supply hot water at up to 75C, though to remain efficient it is best not to exceed 55C, according to the manufacturer. Heat pumps using propane may be more efficient and able to reach higher temperatures but they will always be more efficient if you can keep them operating at lower temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 20 minutes ago, ReedRichards said: The point that is so frequently brushed aside is actually quoted in the article Heat pumps using propane may be more efficient and able to reach higher temperatures but they will always be more efficient if you can keep them operating at lower temperatures. Absolutely, but the capability to hit that higher temp is a good marketing point in this soundbite age. "heatpump can't get hot enough"...... "yes they can, they can produce 75C down to -20C outside". Yes the nuance of efficency is lost, but the opponents don't do nunace. They gloss over fact that you can heat your house using 50C water. It"s also why I like my tapering price guarentee subsidy scheme. It removes the "but they cost more" argument. Once installed the system can be tuned over a period of actual operating conditions to become more efficient. Which spreads the upgrade cost of the emitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 38 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said: Absolutely, but the capability to hit that higher temp is a good marketing point in this soundbite age. "heatpump can't get hot enough"...... "yes they can, they can produce 75C down to -20C outside". Yes the nuance of efficency is lost, but the opponents don't do nunace. They gloss over fact that you can heat your house using 50C water. It"s also why I like my tapering price guarentee subsidy scheme. It removes the "but they cost more" argument. Once installed the system can be tuned over a period of actual operating conditions to become more efficient. Which spreads the upgrade cost of the emitters. What tapering price gurantee? The day someone gurantees running costs, (im NOT saying it nreeds to cheaper) is the day heat pump installations can make progress. As far as im aware, no one does that. Its always on the home owner if the system doesnt perform. Happy to be proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Roger440 said: What tapering price gurantee? The day someone gurantees running costs, (im NOT saying it nreeds to cheaper) is the day heat pump installations can make progress. As far as im aware, no one does that. Its always on the home owner if the system doesnt perform. Happy to be proved wrong. Heat Geek state a guaranteed SCoP and will come back to fix the issue if the install doesn't meet this, or so they claim. Without checking I think all MCS installs should do something similar, Octopus seem to get around it by only designing for a flow temp of 50° so the stated cop is low anyway. Plus MCS won't actually enforce anything if they don't. Edited January 2 by S2D2 *scop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 UFH, dT15 (big) radiators or fan coils are the only way to get a good SCoP. 4 minutes ago, S2D2 said: Heat Geek state a guaranteed CoP No they guarantee a SCoP of at least 4. CoP is instantaneous, SCoP seasonal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, JohnMo said: UFH, dT15 (big) radiators or fan coils are the only way to get a good SCoP. No they guarantee a SCoP of at least 4. CoP is instantaneous, SCoP seasonal. Yep sorry, SCoP. Edited for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Interesting background to the Cosy 6 heat pump mentioned in OP link, capable of 80degC flow temp:- "Design: Developed in-house by Octopus's team led by Dr. Jason Cassells, CEO of Octopus Heating (formerly Renewable Energy Devices acquired by Octopus). This involved innovative design features and boasts six pending patent applications. Manufacturing: While not directly owned by Octopus, the physical production takes place in Craigavon, Northern Ireland, through a partnership with Red Engineering. This allows Octopus to influence the manufacturing process closely while ensuring efficient production. Overall Control: Octopus Energy maintains complete control over the Cosy 6 ecosystem. This includes the heat pump itself, the Cosy Hub control system, Cosy Pods room sensors, and even the bespoke smart heat pump energy tariff. So, while Red Engineering handles the physical manufacturing in Northern Ireland, the Cosy 6 is very much under the creative and strategic direction of Octopus Energy. It's truly their baby, designed and managed to seamlessly integrate with their wider home energy ecosystem" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 28 minutes ago, S2D2 said: Heat Geek state a guaranteed SCoP and will come back to fix the issue if the install doesn't meet this, or so they claim. Without checking I think all MCS installs should do something similar, Octopus seem to get around it by only designing for a flow temp of 50° so the stated cop is low anyway. Plus MCS won't actually enforce anything if they don't. One lone installer, good as he is, isnt going to achieve much. Though its interesting No one else gurantees it. Lets face it, they would likely go bankrupt if they did. Many offer warm woolly words. But thats not a guarantee. And no one in the real will cares about COP and SCOP. its about how much it costs to run, and are they warm. Yes, the 2 are clearly related, but not the same. Yes, the system achieves an SCOP of 4, but it cant get to 20 degrees inside isnt much use. Gurantee i can be at 21 degrees, no matter what, with a power consumption model to achieve it, im interested. Until then, and whilst performance risk lies with me and not the installer, ill sit back and wait. Can you imagine buying a car, but the manufacturer says, well we say it will work, but if it doesnt and you need to modify it to do so, its nothing to do with us, you will have to wear that cost yourself. Bonkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Can you imagine buying a car, but the manufacturer says, well we say it will work, but if it doesnt and you need to modify it to do so, its nothing to do with us, you will have to wear that cost yourself. Bonkers. That is what is happening with cars that get upgraded via software, so it is already with us. My car has a habit og going into limp mode, I think it is the EGR, it still gets me places, so 'works'. Just not very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, SteamyTea said: That is what is happening with cars that get upgraded via software, so it is already with us. My car has a habit og going into limp mode, I think it is the EGR, it still gets me places, so 'works'. Just not very well. Not really the same is it? Your car is hardly new anymore. The design was fine when it was delivered. That the EGR hasnt stayed working forever with zero maintenance isnt a surprise, any more than a heat pump will shit itself eventually. It will fail one day. Maybe 5 years, maybe 10, maybe 20, but it will fail. And in the unlikely event it failed in the first 3 years, it would have been fixed, for free, under warranty. So all very different from a HP installation, where its mostly, fit and walk away. And when the callbacks get to much, fold the company and resurface next day as a diffeent onre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, Roger440 said: One lone installer, good as he is, isnt going to achieve much. Though its interesting No one else gurantees it. Lets face it, they would likely go bankrupt if they did. Many offer warm woolly words. But thats not a guarantee. And no one in the real will cares about COP and SCOP. its about how much it costs to run, and are they warm. Yes, the 2 are clearly related, but not the same. Yes, the system achieves an SCOP of 4, but it cant get to 20 degrees inside isnt much use. Gurantee i can be at 21 degrees, no matter what, with a power consumption model to achieve it, im interested. Until then, and whilst performance risk lies with me and not the installer, ill sit back and wait. Can you imagine buying a car, but the manufacturer says, well we say it will work, but if it doesnt and you need to modify it to do so, its nothing to do with us, you will have to wear that cost yourself. Bonkers. Heat Geek are an umbrella MCS company which cover hundreds of installers. The MCS calcs have a design temp which will be stated on your radiator schedule. The SCoP stated is for that internal temperature as it's all linked to radiator sizes and flow temperatures. The main issue is the calcs not being done correctly. That's something that should be enforceable by MCS to fix but yeah right. Care is needed but it's not difficult to make all of these things line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Not really the same is it? Well it is. Tesla did a temporary upgrade, over the air, when a hurricane hit Florida. It effectively made the Model S 60p a Model S 90p. Then there is the Ludicrous Mode upgrade. Must be a bit galling knowing you have a better car, but you have to pay to get to the better bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 13 minutes ago, S2D2 said: Heat Geek are an umbrella MCS company which cover hundreds of installers. The MCS calcs have a design temp which will be stated on your radiator schedule. The SCoP stated is for that internal temperature as it's all linked to radiator sizes and flow temperatures. The main issue is the calcs not being done correctly. That's something that should be enforceable by MCS to fix but yeah right. Care is needed but it's not difficult to make all of these things line up. End result is still the same. As a customer, i dont care if its the calcs wrong, poor installation etc. Its the customers problem if it doesnt work. Outside of this forum is a big world, where lots of piss ;poor work happens. If you ignore all the "anti" nonsense and weed out the ones who actually have a system and a problem, the overriding message is clear. House not warm and/or costs a fortune to run compared to what it replaced. I dont know anyone, personally, who has one and is happy with it. I do know some who are not happy. Small sample, ill give you that, but its the reality. There been enough people on here trying to resolve poorly installed systems. Where the installer doesnt want to know. Give me a guaranteed result, and im all ears. Guaranteeing SCoP is not doing that. Interesting engineering as it is. Edited January 2 by Roger440 spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Well it is. Tesla did a temporary upgrade, over the air, when a hurricane hit Florida. It effectively made the Model S 60p a Model S 90p. Then there is the Ludicrous Mode upgrade. Must be a bit galling knowing you have a better car, but you have to pay to get to the better bits. It isnt. So tesla gave a free upgrade. Lovely. Not that i would own a car the manufacturer can tinker with remotely. But that a seperate issue. How is that relevant to their being no gurantee on a £15k HP installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Roger440 said: Give me a guranteed result, and im all ears. Guranteeing SCoP is not doing that. Interesting engineering as it is. It is, because that SCoP is tied to the rest of the design. It also directly affects the cost of running. I don't have a solution to installers being crap, but there's nothing to stop a heat pump working perfectly well if it is designed and installed properly. The up front cost is the pain point, hence the efforts to make them run like gas boilers at high temps. You save a few thousand on install costs but a poor SCoP increases your running costs. No different to any other cost/performance trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 It is relevant as an example of using the word 'Working'. What you think is working, what I think is working and what someone else thinks is working may be very different things. If I say that it will work 95% of the time, and for the remaining 5% of the time it will be 20% sub optimal, that is what I am working to. If you way you want it to work 100% of the time at 100% performance, then I will sell you something that is over sized and probably cost more. Cars the the same. You can tow a 1 tonnes boat with a small car or a large car. I would prefer to tow with a larger one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 It's interesting that the media focus is increasingly on flow temperature, 70 or even 80degC now being quoted. That suggests to me that heat pump manufacturer's strategy is mass conversion of old housing stock via mass produced, low cost, high temperature heat pumps as direct replacements for old gas boilers, working with existing small rads and which, because of technological improvements, can achieve comparable energy running costs. This doesn't stop those who can afford it from going one step better with large rads/UFH to reduce running costs further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billt Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, S2D2 said: It is, because that SCoP is tied to the rest of the design. It also directly affects the cost of running. I don't have a solution to installers being crap, but there's nothing to stop a heat pump working perfectly well if it is designed and installed properly. The up front cost is the pain point, hence the efforts to make them run like gas boilers at high temps. You save a few thousand on install costs but a poor SCoP increases your running costs. No different to any other cost/performance trade off. I designed and installed my own ASHP. It works exactly as designed. It keeps the living room at 20C and the rest of the house at 18C. The SCOP since install is 3.96, CoP 5.2 over the last 24 hours. I hope to get it above 4 with a bit more adjusting. It cost me a fortune as I ended up replacing almost all of the existing system, but that was to some extent due to the existing pipe work layout being rubbish, some of the radiators that I chose were eye wateringly pricey, and I added an oem heat pump monitoring system. I could have installed a usable system for about £4000 using the heat pump that I bought but it would have been a bit less efficient and would have needed at lot of tweaking to get the flow rates right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Maybe every heat pump should come with a 2 kw fan heater for the sub optimal days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 9 minutes ago, S2D2 said: It is, because that SCoP is tied to the rest of the design. It also directly affects the cost of running. I don't have a solution to installers being crap, but there's nothing to stop a heat pump working perfectly well if it is designed and installed properly. The up front cost is the pain point, hence the efforts to make them run like gas boilers at high temps. You save a few thousand on install costs but a poor SCoP increases your running costs. No different to any other cost/performance trade off. But its still not a gurantee of result. As i said before, i can have a guranteed SCoP. Where my gurantee of being warm.? Yes, IF its designed correctly, them i will be warm. Emphasis on "IF". I understand completely that a HP CAN be installed and made to work correctly. Theres no argument about that. And yes, there will be the pain element of capital cost. And that is an undoubted problem for many. But the primary reason out in the real world, is that lots of installations dont work properly. People who have systems that dont work properly, tell other people. That how it works. In a normal market, lets take cars again, those providing a poor product eventually go out of business. But this is diffrent. Theres a cartel, and government subsidies. Normal rules and gurantees seem to absent. If buying a HP was £500 then id be less concerned. But its up there in terms of being one of the biggest purchases you will make outside of the house and maybe a car. And for the consumer, there is, literally no gurantee or protection from crap installsations. The reasons why are of no concern to the consumer. Ill say it again, give me a guarantee of performance and power consumption, im listening, other no, ill not be a victim. When/if that happens, then im sure take up will increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: It is relevant as an example of using the word 'Working'. What you think is working, what I think is working and what someone else thinks is working may be very different things. If I say that it will work 95% of the time, and for the remaining 5% of the time it will be 20% sub optimal, that is what I am working to. If you way you want it to work 100% of the time at 100% performance, then I will sell you something that is over sized and probably cost more. Cars the the same. You can tow a 1 tonnes boat with a small car or a large car. I would prefer to tow with a larger one. I think you are arguing with yourself. Im really no longer sure what your point is? Ive outlined what i consider working. Being warm (lets say 21 degrees) and for a known power consumption (lets use kWh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 8 minutes ago, Roger440 said: But its still not a gurantee of result. As i said before, i can have a guranteed SCoP. Where my gurantee of being warm.? In the radiator schedule which is included in the MCS quote along with the stated SCoP. I do agree with everything else, companies are free to register with MCS then break the rules. The umbrella companies are less risky in this regard, they would prefer to fix one bodged install than lose their entire business model by having MCS registration revoked. But yes, that shouldn't be the only tool consumers have when things go wrong, especially with the amounts of money involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 56 minutes ago, S2D2 said: Heat Geek are an umbrella MCS company which cover hundreds of installers. My understanding is that Heat Geek is a training/accreditation company. An installer pays them a sum of money, undertakes a training course, or several, and then gets to call themselves a Heat Geek. I presume those trained installers undertake to work to certain standards but I don't know if they suffer penalties if they don't maintain these standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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