Tiles too 'loud' - and excessive bathroom retile quote

[puntloos]

17 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Hiya, got a soft soft for you as you have done a great job and worked so hard.

Well, fair, it's always possible, it would just be a change from how they acted over the last year (where they had many chances to stiff me). 

 

17 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

The builders may be trying to sting you at the end as they have other offers. Some times builders.. like lovers say.. it was good fun but.. I have a chance at hollywood and the big time.

Indeed. But I'd like to have a good solid list of points on this

 

It seems most people have a problem with labour, 85GBP per m2 for 36m2 of wall tiles. Of course tiles can be expensive, so if this includes tiles that would make it reasonable-ish? 

Or are there any other yellow/red flags in this quote?

 

17 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Post a photo of what you have. Also fesse up if there is an underlying problem, I think you're pragmatic.. is there more to this than meets the eye?

Below I truly am not holding anything back, I don't have any list of suspicious stuff I am ignoring etc.

I just don't know enough about pricing to identify if any of the particular items is outrageous, it's just that the total "doesn't add up" compared to typical rule of thumb prices. Halp?

 

12 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Choosing tiles is hard. One single sample might look great but look terrible on the wall. We had 25 tile samples at one point and I got a bit tile blind. We loved a few patterned tiles but decided not to go with them and went with some large format textured cream tiles. The idea being that the bathroom furniture will break up the uniform colour as Gus suggests. 

Indeed, this particular tiling surprised us. 

 

10 hours ago, Tetrarch said:

Overtiling one wall with something very plain will help. If it doesn't do another wall. This should not be expensive as you're starting with a completely flat substrate

Interesting idea. Losing 2x9mm and a bit of adhesive might not be such a crazy idea. I wonder what types of joints/corners etc will look iffy with this solution.. 

 

Pics here - as far as I can tell they did a fine job (obv not 100% finished), just with noisy tiles.

[Adsibob]

@puntloos can you explain what it is about the way the bathroom turned out that you don’t like? In detail please.

 

I think gloss tiles over a Matt finish may be contributing to the issue. Also, what colour temp is that LED recessed ceiling lighting? Anything greater than 2800K won’t look good. You might find that researching a way to make the tiles less glossy and replacing the LED with a warmer colour, significantly improves the aesthetic.

[MR10]

@puntloos Any chance you could embrace the 'loud'? 

Could you paint the ceiling a dark colour (black, navy) just to see if it absorbs the 'noise' or if it gives it a luxury look instead? And if you do like it then it's only the cost of paint you have to worry about.

[Adsibob]

20 hours ago, puntloos said:

the tiles just didn't turn out like we wanted

Please can you expand on this. Give me a couple of paragraphs of consciousness on what you wanted and how it is different to what you got.

 

 I’m also curious to understand whether you installed the same glossy tiles on the floor and in the wall. If so, what is their slip rating? Glossy tiles in a bathroom could be very slippery.

[Adsibob]

43 minutes ago, MR10 said:

Could you paint the ceiling a dark colour (black, navy) just to see if it absorbs the 'noise' or if it gives it a luxury look instead? And if you do like it then it's only the cost of paint you have to worry about.

Painting the ceiling a different colour is a good idea, but I wouldn’t go for anything as extreme as black or navy as that will make the tiles stand out even more. Just a grey that is matt in finish and matches the grey in the tile in tone, though I would possibly go a shade lighter, as it might be too dark. 

[puntloos]

6 hours ago, Adsibob said:

@puntloos can you explain what it is about the way the bathroom turned out that you don’t like? In detail please.

The only problem is that we expected a white tile with some touches of grey veining. We received tiles with loud shouty veining. My first post shows the difference. To be clear, you could argue it was our fault - the original picture seems to be direct sunlight etc, where we have normal lighting. Either way the contrast is too eye-watering. 

 

6 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I think gloss tiles over a Matt finish may be contributing to the issue.

Which bit do you believe is matt? Either way, yes, certainly might've been our poor choice.

6 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Also, what colour temp is that LED recessed ceiling lighting? Anything greater than 2800K won’t look good. You might find that researching a way to make the tiles less glossy and replacing the LED with a warmer colour, significantly improves the aesthetic.

 

Ceiling lighting is variable, it can do warm and cold at a variety of dimming levels. I don't know if we did the experiment yet but I don't think the colour temp will help with the contrast. 

 

6 hours ago, MR10 said:

@puntloos Any chance you could embrace the 'loud'? 

Could you paint the ceiling a dark colour (black, navy) just to see if it absorbs the 'noise' or if it gives it a luxury look instead? And if you do like it then it's only the cost of paint you have to worry about.

 

True. But well, it might be a bit 'garish' and most of our house is pretty toned down, tacit and we're aiming for elegant. 

 

5 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Please can you expand on this. Give me a couple of paragraphs of consciousness on what you wanted and how it is different to what you got.

 

As above, primarily, the contrast in the tile pattern is the main issue. To be fair it is mostly my wife's impression and value judgment, I do agree but personally I would've left it and see if we can get used to it.

 

5 hours ago, Adsibob said:

 I’m also curious to understand whether you installed the same glossy tiles on the floor and in the wall. If so, what is their slip rating? Glossy tiles in a bathroom could be very slippery.

No floor has beige tiles. 

[Adsibob]

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

We received tiles with loud shouty veining.

I’m still struggling to understand. I asked you to explain what you meant by too loud. Do you mean you wanted a more subtle effect? And instead you got very obvious veining that is too stark in comparison to the white background, that there is too much of this veining, and that as a consequence the whole effect is too busy?

 

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

Which bit do you believe is matt? Either way, yes, certainly might've been our poor choice.

No, I meant that it appears that your tiles are glossy, whereas a matt effect marble imitation would probably have looked better if you were going for marble imitation. Not because marble can’t be glossy, but because matt tends to look better with artificial lighting, and gives a cosier more refined feel than glossy.

 

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

I don't know if we did the experiment yet but I don't think the colour temp will help with the contrast. 

Believe me, I have had to learn a lot about colour temperature as part of our build. It has a huge impact on the feel of a room. Warm lighting will really help here. I would swap out the LEd and or the controller to ensure you can only have 2700K or 2800

 

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

No floor has beige tiles. 

Can we see a photo showing the floor with the beige tiles against the wall tiles? If it’s not been tiled yet, I think you can rescue the situation by just changing the floor tiles to a dark grey, matt large format tile. Something like a slate effect tile in 75cm by 75cm or if your bathroom is too small for that, 60cm by 60cm, or 40cm by 80cm. Install with 3mm joints, with a grout colour that is the same colour as the tile. 
i don’t think beige would work at all, sorry. To explain: you are bothered by the degree of loudness/busy-ness and the fact that it is high contrast. But a beige floor will add to the busyness by introducing another colour. Whereas a dark grey will help ground the room, and keep within the theme, particularly if you get something that looks like a real stone, slate or granite.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Adsibob

[Alan Ambrose]

An option is just to live with it for a couple of months. Then if you’re still bothered by it, take the leap and get it re-tiled. A bodge in between may still bother you anyway. It all depends on how much it bugs you - but some stuff your brain just tunes out after a while.

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I’m still struggling to understand. I asked you to explain what you meant by too loud. Do you mean you wanted a more subtle effect? And instead you got very obvious veining that is too stark in comparison to the white background, that there is too much of this veining, and that as a consequence the whole effect is too busy?

Correct. 

 

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

 

No, I meant that it appears that your tiles are glossy, whereas a matt effect marble imitation would probably have looked better if you were going for marble imitation. Not because marble can’t be glossy, but because matt tends to look better with artificial lighting, and gives a cosier more refined feel than glossy.

Fair enough, I guess that's one thing to add to the tile choice mishap, although the tiles in our master ensuite worked much nicer. 

 

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

 

Believe me, I have had to learn a lot about colour temperature as part of our build. It has a huge impact on the feel of a room. Warm lighting will really help here. I would swap out the LEd and or the controller to ensure you can only have 2700K or 2800

I might take a few pictures with the various options but I basically have the full spectrum available between 2500 and 4000 I believe.

 

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Can we see a photo showing the floor with the beige tiles against the wall tiles? If it’s not been tiled yet, I think you can rescue the situation by just changing the floor tiles to a dark grey, matt large format tile. Something like a slate effect tile in 75cm by 75cm or if your bathroom is too small for that, 60cm by 60cm, or 40cm by 80cm. Install with 3mm joints, with a grout colour that is the same colour as the tile. 
i don’t think beige would work at all, sorry. To explain: you are bothered by the degree of loudness/busy-ness and the fact that it is high contrast. But a beige floor will add to the busyness by introducing another colour. Whereas a dark grey will help ground the room, and keep within the theme, particularly if you get something that looks like a real stone, slate or granite.

 

I believe the tiles are there already but I'm not 100% sure. This is what we designed/hoped for:

 

I don't quite recall why we picked different wall tiles from our master ensuite, since they are a good match, but as said before we were certainly aiming for the same effect. 

 

 

 

[Adsibob]

 

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

No floor has beige tiles

 

the last picture you posted appears to show a mid to light grey Matt floor tile, which I think would work well. Is this your tile? Am I colour blind, or odd this not beige?

[puntloos]

19 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

 

 

the last picture you posted appears to show a mid to light grey Matt floor tile, which I think would work well. Is this your tile? Am I colour blind, or odd this not beige?

I'm one of those guys who doesn't do "colour names" - but yes what I call beige might be warm grey or etc. This might be the one: https://www.architonic.com/en/product/refin-sublime-beige/20729582 (on the purchase order it's called "sublime matt") 

[Adsibob]

So I like the colour scheme of that last photo. I’d that your bathroom @puntloos? My only criticism is that there looks to be a small amount of picture framing going on. Perhaps it’s just in need of cleaning the grout stains, or it’s something that the camera picked up which isn’t so visible in real life.

 But in any case, apart from fixing any picture framing issues, I would be moved to leave that for a few months as @Alan Ambrose suggested. I think you wood get used to it. Looks very smart with the black towel rad.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

I'm one of those guys who doesn't do "colour names" - but yes what I call beige might

I always think beige is really just a shade of brown.  Like a 1970s Ford Cortina MK3.

[puntloos]

For funzies:

My 3D render

 

Cool white light

 

Warm white light

 

[Ferdinand]

I think your quote is notably expensive. I don't understand stuff like "plumber to disconnect", "electrician to disconnect" and a few of the other lines. I would file those under "wtf?".

 

I'd say that in this particular case someone is taking the p, or might it be possible that he doesn't want the job and is trying to scare you off?

One question on the existing work is that to me the tiles seem to have similar direction orientation - all lined and joined up, rather than random orientations. That may be one factor in emphasizing the "large pattern" rather than going for a broken up "background texture" look.

 

I had 2 bathrooms quite heavily redone fairly recently (2019) to do with enlarging and adjusting shower cubicles and a new bath put in, changes to the floor structure to correct mistakes by the original self-builder (had used subfloor material that moved in moisture and cracked tiles), sounds insulation, and "accessibility" for my elderly mum. 

 

When my plumber-joiner-kitchen-bathroom-fitter needed stuff disconnecting he just made me turn off the circuit at the fuse, or turn the water off at the SureStop switch. I'm not sure what takes a full day to do that, unless it is some peculiar estimating or work system and he has a funny strict contract with his subs for which you are having to pay?

 

I'd suggest getting the rest done, and return to this in a few months with separate quotes from several tilers. Then spend the money (£3-5k?) you save on a nice holiday.

 

There are other approaches you could take, such as full size fabric hangings on a wall or two.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

One question on the existing work is that to me the tiles seem to have similar direction orientation - all lined and joined up, rather than random orientations. That may be one factor in emphasizing the "large pattern" rather than going for a broken up "background texture" look.

I disagree. When installing tiles with this sort of veining, it’s crucial to respect the direction of the veining in the installation. Ask @nod.

Had the veining been installed in random directions, it would look even louder and horrible, like a complete mess. Though a good installer should have consulted with @puntloos and asked him which direction he wanted the veining in; my installer asked me. These tiles just aren’t suitable for a 

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

broken up "background texture" look

I think the reason the estimate excludes anything to do with the electrical and water services is probably a question of liability. A tiler isn’t a qualified electrician or plumber, so he won’t be happy to do electrics or plumbing, and certainly won’t be insured to do it.

[Adsibob]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

For funzies:

My 3D render

 

Cool white light

 

Warm white light

 

The 3D render looks best.

Then the warm light.

The cool light looks nasty. I would not be happy having a light switch that could come on to that. It’s cold and clinical and brings out the wrong tones of the tiles. But the tiles in the warm light look good.

 

Finish the bathroom, choose the towels and floor matt wisely, I suggest a grey that is slightly darker than the floor tile, nothing patterned, just plain solid block of colour. Get some nice expensive bath robes too and hang them up somewhere quite prominent - they should match the colour of the towels exactly. Invest in some nice candles. Two or three, in the standard off white wax colour. The really thick ones that have a 75mm or 90mm diameter. That will soften everything up, and with a few shampoo bottles and other bathing paraphernalia I think you will start to enjoy your bathroom. Right now, you are obsessing too much with the tiling, but that is normal - it’s not come out how you or SWMBO thought it would. But that doesn’t make it bad. I actually quite like it. But I see that it’s not as nice as the render. Too glossy. Nevertheless, with all the paraphernalia in the room, it will look much more lived in and cosier.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Adsibob

[TonyT]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I think your quote is notably expensive. I don't understand stuff like "plumber to disconnect", "electrician to disconnect" and a few of the other lines. I would file those under "wtf?".

 

I'd say that in this particular case someone is taking the p, or might it be possible that he doesn't want the job and is trying to scare you off?

One question on the existing work is that to me the tiles seem to have similar direction orientation - all lined and joined up, rather than random orientations. That may be one factor in emphasizing the "large pattern" rather than going for a broken up "background texture" look.

 

I had 2 bathrooms quite heavily redone fairly recently (2019) to do with enlarging and adjusting shower cubicles and a new bath put in, changes to the floor structure to correct mistakes by the original self-builder (had used subfloor material that moved in moisture and cracked tiles), sounds insulation, and "accessibility" for my elderly mum. 

 

When my plumber-joiner-kitchen-bathroom-fitter needed stuff disconnecting he just made me turn off the circuit at the fuse, or turn the water off at the SureStop switch. I'm not sure what takes a full day to do that, unless it is some peculiar estimating or work system and he has a funny strict contract with his subs for which you are having to pay?

 

I'd suggest getting the rest done, and return to this in a few months with separate quotes from several tilers. Then spend the money (£3-5k?) you save on a nice holiday.

 

There are other approaches you could take, such as full size fabric hangings on a wall or two.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

and we know that all kitchen fitters/bathroom fitters do brilliant plumbing and electrical work.

 

I prefer to

get specific trades for each job.

[Ferdinand]

Lots of people getting excited about electrics / electricians and plumbers / plumbing in bathrooms, and I am nonplussed.

Can anyone explain to me what exactly needs to be disconnected in order to retile a bathroom, and why it needs an electrician or plumber to do it? Obviously a bathroom cannot be wired or rewired by a non-electrician - but it's not being wired or rewired.

 

I've just had a look at both my bathrooms, and I can't find anything except - possibly - an electric shower. Everything else is I think on the ceiling. There's a shaver socket on the side of my bathroom mirror, which may involve a penetration behind the mirror (can't remember), but that's more a job for a joiner or handyman than an electrician once originally wired in by a lecky. Full tiling to ceiling would make a small difference, but very little.

When I'm designing a bathroom I would go out of my way to make sure that as little as possible - especially electrics - is installed on tiles, because it's such a PITA.

 

To completely disconnect my bathrooms I flick a couple of switches on the consumer unit, and I expect the tiler / fitter or whoever to work around the minor things that are there. And they are. But my guy who does tiling does entire bathrooms, and also entire kitchens, beautifully and without turning a hair, and has been doing jobs for my dad before me - back to the 1990s. He also does all my 2G and external doors, since he has the kind of trade contacts I do not have.

 

I would not ask him to rewire a house of course, since that is correctly heavily regulated for safety - and if I did he would tear me off a strip. Normally that is done before the kitchen is fitted, of course, as I'm sure we all do.

Am I missing something, here? Or is my man bionic?

 

As a note I tend to keep it simple by not having huge tiles and so on. But I've had about 10 bathrooms done

without the "but what about the plumber and electrician I need" issue ever even being mentioned. And several by others than my main man.

[joth]

Context here is the house is still in the process of being built by a principal contractor. If they have their tiler start altering electrical or plumbing fittings that haven't yet all been commissioned or signed off, then any faults that subsequently develop would be a finger pointing nightmare. Thus the principle contractor will be obliged to have all the trades involved in the scope of work to wade in to do their bit for any changes 

 

In my experience as a client (or a different builder in the same area), these sorts of rework variations can overinflated both because the principal contractor does not want the risk to impact on the programme timeline, but also because of an emotional cost: the individual trades absolutely hate ripping up and redoing their handy work and will moan and drag heels over it, and whoever is directing the thing just doesn't want/need to be dealing with that extra headache, so sand bags it both to put off doing the variation and for their own overheads in making it happen 

Edited December 30, 2023 by joth

[Ferdinand]

(Useful comments from @joth around context. Thanks.)

 

As it happens my kitchen-bathroom man turned up with an invoice this morning, for replacement of the door gear in a uPVC door he installed in a tenants house back in 2017 or so. Door gear is the gubbins (minus the lock) that engages the locking multipoints.

 

His comment was around what work is actually regulated. We chatted on whether, for example, connection of an electric hob or like for like replacement or an electric shower is restricted to electricians.

 

It's quite funny - he turned up looking a bit hipster-like with a growth of beard and hair on top.

 

It turns out that his daughter is doing a hairdressing module on her course at Sheffield University, and is required to demonstrate that at the end she has the skills to cut hair and shave a beard. Inevitably, dad is the chosen victim 😁 . The joys of being a parent.