Wall mounted basic ASHP for workshop

[Beelbeebub]

R290 looks like a good option, certainly for monoblocks.

 

For A2A units the theoretical explosion/fire risk is pretty low. Mind you the last thing we need is a few fires/explosions for the daily mail to get all lathered up about. 

 

If we could come up with some way of mitigating the risk, say oderant in the gas (as we do with gas supplies) or even just mandating some sort of detector (as we do with carbon monoxide) then I reckon the way should be clear for home installs of mini split A2A units.  

 

If they could use some sort of push fit connection (I believe daikin have one) to removed the need for flare nuts or brazing that would be great. 

 

If the outdoor units were pre approved for noise, pretty small and paintable (or have swappable covers) so that tgay could be installed without any need for planning in the majority of cases that would really open the door. 

 

 

[markocosic]

You're making this far too complicated.

 

Do NOTHING. Just sell the things. Stop imposing EXTRA safety measures on things that are useful UNTIL they are imposed on things that are not.

 

If you're not capable of flaring a copper pipe you're not competent to be installing these. It's an utter piece of pish if you have a vaguely decent cutting/flaring too. Don't try it using nasty old brake pipe flaring sets from grandad's garage though. That'll scratch the flare to buggery.

 

If you're genuinely scared about people blowing themselves up...

 

- Ban gas hobs

- Ban gas ovens

- Ban domestic gas connections

- Ban portable calor gas heaters

- Ban people putting ***15kg*** propane cylinders indoors

- Ban camping gas

- Ban cans of WD40

- Ban bloody air fresheners

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-41179132

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-56337761

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-50810196

 

Or just let the idiots blow themselves and their families to bits. That will also reduce carbon emissions. (though sadly they all survive just fine; albeit slightly more awake than before they lit the spliff)

 

But don't discriminate against useful things by forcing them to be safer than useless things or more environmentally damaging things.

 

If you're objecting to propane on the ground of safety...then start with gas safety in general and work your way right down to minisplits.

 

They. Are. Not. A. Priority.

 

Unless you're a supporter of DuPont/Chemours wanting to sell nasty gases or Putin & Xi. 😉

[markocosic]

LOL @ people...

 

Some even think it's a good idea to cook air freshener on top of wood burners:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50380248

 

Still won't take out the house though. You need a mains gas connection to really do that reliably.

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, markocosic said:

Ban bloody air fresheners

And boys going though puberty.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1087772/Boy-12-collapsed-died-using-Lynx-deodorant.html

[Beelbeebub]

3 hours ago, markocosic said:

You're making this far too complicated.

 

Do NOTHING. Just sell the things. Stop imposing EXTRA safety measures on things that are useful UNTIL they are imposed on things that are not.

 

If you're not capable of flaring a copper pipe you're not competent to be installing these. It's an utter piece of pish if you have a vaguely decent cutting/flaring too. Don't try it using nasty old brake pipe flaring sets from grandad's garage though. That'll scratch the flare to buggery.

 

If you're genuinely scared about people blowing themselves up...

 

- Ban gas hobs

- Ban gas ovens

- Ban domestic gas connections

- Ban portable calor gas heaters

- Ban people putting ***15kg*** propane cylinders indoors

- Ban camping gas

- Ban cans of WD40

- Ban bloody air fresheners

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-41179132

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-56337761

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-50810196

 

Or just let the idiots blow themselves and their families to bits. That will also reduce carbon emissions. (though sadly they all survive just fine; albeit slightly more awake than before they lit the spliff)

 

But don't discriminate against useful things by forcing them to be safer than useless things or more environmentally damaging things.

 

If you're objecting to propane on the ground of safety...then start with gas safety in general and work your way right down to minisplits.

 

They. Are. Not. A. Priority.

 

Unless you're a supporter of DuPont/Chemours wanting to sell nasty gases or Putin & Xi. 😉

I'd point out that the reason we don't have people blowing themselves up with domestic gas connections is precisely because we have regulations. 

 

All domestic mains gas is certified installer only. The gas hobs and ovens all must have flame safe devices. The gas has an odorant added so leaks are really easy to dect well before the explosive range is reached. Plus methane is lighter than air so disperses easier than propane. 

 

Pretty much every time a house blows up, it's because someone who shouldn't be monkeying with gas was monkeying with gas. 

 

But as you point out there are other risk sources that we tolerate. 150g is less than a plumbers propane touch and some camping gas canisters which people have indoors all the time. 

 

The EU is making steps towards allowing r290 splits, if Britain is going to make any use of it's supposed post EU freedoms beyond allowing points of wine to be sold (FFS), this migbt be an area we could steal a march. 

 

Allow, encourage even, r290 splits. 

 

If we can add an oderant (I believe the standard one used in gas isn't compatible with the use cycle in heat pumps) then we should be looking at allowing DIY kit r290's. Just sell the flare kits and vaccum pumps in the same aisle at B&q. 

[Beelbeebub]

Let's pretend out government was actually interested in doing something useful rather than whatever it's up to at the moment.... 

 

A2A systems can be installed alongside existing gas systems. This sidesteps the "what if it's too cold" issue and also the "wahg if it costs more to run". The A2A system can just be run when it is cheaper than gas. Hopefully over time the householder realises that the fgas system is very rarely used and can retire it. 

 

So the market for installing these systems could be huge. With some appropriate subsidies and import tariffs, local manufacturers would be in incentivised to appear. With a strong local market they could gain size and experience. The presence of a successful UK regulatory framework would pressure the EU to cut and paste the UK standards and practise into their own standards (albeit this is less certain now UK is out). If this were to happen you would have a strong UK base making EU compliant products ready to sell into a massive EU market. 

 

Or we could have pints of wine that nobody actually wants. 

[Roger440]

8 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Let's pretend out government was actually interested in doing something useful rather than whatever it's up to at the moment.... 

 

A2A systems can be installed alongside existing gas systems. This sidesteps the "what if it's too cold" issue and also the "wahg if it costs more to run". The A2A system can just be run when it is cheaper than gas. Hopefully over time the householder realises that the fgas system is very rarely used and can retire it. 

 

So the market for installing these systems could be huge. With some appropriate subsidies and import tariffs, local manufacturers would be in incentivised to appear. With a strong local market they could gain size and experience. The presence of a successful UK regulatory framework would pressure the EU to cut and paste the UK standards and practise into their own standards (albeit this is less certain now UK is out). If this were to happen you would have a strong UK base making EU compliant products ready to sell into a massive EU market. 

 

Or we could have pints of wine that nobody actually wants. 

 

My understanding the reason why A2A isnt desired by government, is that it allows cooling as well as heating. And that uses more energy than no cooling.

 

All the grants, incentives etc only apply to things that do heat ONLY.

 

Aside from logis, lets forget that during peak cooling demand the big yellow ball in the sky will be shining and solar should be in abundance.

 

[markocosic]

4 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

My understanding the reason why A2A isnt desired by government, is that it allows cooling as well as heating. And that uses more energy than no cooling.

 

No, it's because it's already cheaper than gas. 🙂

 

That's why it was excluded from RHI in the first place. 😉

 

In the EU they're already the most popular heat pumps; hence the "UK lagging behind figures" as UK doesn't count them where others do.

 

And others also sell them in B&Q

 

But ensure that you can't buy less than 9kg of gas for them - a quantity where it's uneconomic to DIY add 20g/metre of line set or to refill leaked out systems. Cheaper to pay somebody else.

[Roger440]

10 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

No, it's because it's already cheaper than gas. 🙂

 

That's why it was excluded from RHI in the first place. 😉

 

In the EU they're already the most popular heat pumps; hence the "UK lagging behind figures" as UK doesn't count them where others do.

 

And others also sell them in B&Q

 

But ensure that you can't buy less than 9kg of gas for them - a quantity where it's uneconomic to DIY add 20g/metre of line set or to refill leaked out systems. Cheaper to pay somebody else.

 

Whatever the reason, it complete bollocks.

 

 

[markocosic]

FWIW Appliances Direct was probably the cause of the reworking of the "warranty for details" letter by Saturn.

 

They got...a slap on the wrist for selling F-Gas appliances to end users using a "yes I will get it installed by a pro" checkbox.

 

https://www.acrjournal.uk/news/appliance-direct-holding-company-prosecuted-for-breaching-f-gas-regula/

[HughF]

2 hours ago, markocosic said:

FWIW Appliances Direct was probably the cause of the reworking of the "warranty for details" letter by Saturn.

 

They got...a slap on the wrist for selling F-Gas appliances to end users using a "yes I will get it installed by a pro" checkbox.

 

https://www.acrjournal.uk/news/appliance-direct-holding-company-prosecuted-for-breaching-f-gas-regula/

Oops…. To be fair, it did seem a bit too easy to buy r32 filled units from them.

[Originaltwist]

As the issue is about gas emissions when the pipe is connected perhaps if the pipe was connected and precharged to one side and had a crafty device on the other end that opened as it was screwed in. So anyone can drill a hole in the wall, shove the pipes through and screw them on or maybe just push them on like airline quick connectors.

BTW My A2A came from Saturn 18 months ago, under £1,000 total fitted with no fuss. Gas guy came with electrician for 4 hours. I guess that was lucky timing.

[HughF]

No change in the checkout procedure for f-gas units since I bought one in August 2023… and as the offence was dated 2020, I expect the change to the checkout was implemented back then?

[TonyT]

Why not fit it yourself and get an f gas engineer to commission it?

[HughF]

8 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Why not fit it yourself and get an f gas engineer to commission it?

Most will only commission stuff they’ve supplied, usual reasons.

[TonyT]

Well it’s a nice Friday afternoon job/ infill job for someone.

[Beelbeebub]

It is a shame we need fgas cert to install A2A units. 

 

I can see why it's done as people would be pissing redridgerant about all over the place, or not properly flushing the system and getting problems. 

 

R290 wouldn't be an issue *except* for the flammability. 

 

If we could sort that, and maybe that can be done by checking how likely the fire/explosion risk actually is¹, then it would be brilliant if we could DIY install. 

 

I would be 100% doing it. I'm pondering getting an f-gas cert.

 

¹i believe r290 units have been in extensive use in India and China for a while now. I didn't know how rigorous their installation regulations are or how well they adhered to or what they deem an acceptable level of accidents, but it would seem if they can do it without blowing themselves up on regular basis we could 

 

[HughF]

If you get your f-gas qualification through city and guilds, it doesn’t expire. There is another body that issues certs but their one expires after 5 yrs or so.

[Beelbeebub]

3 minutes ago, HughF said:

If you get your f-gas qualification through city and guilds, it doesn’t expire. There is another body that issues certs but their one expires after 5 yrs or so.

Yeah, it's a bit of a minefield.  Seems a bit weird that one qualification expires and the the other doesn't.  What do C&G courses do that stop you forgetting?

 

 

[Dillsue]

On 01/01/2024 at 21:43, Roger440 said:

Aside from logis, lets forget that during peak cooling demand the big yellow ball in the sky will be shining and solar should be in abundance.

 

Unfortunately not. Have a look at gridwatch.co.uk to see how thin the yellow solar sliver is.

[JohnMo]

32 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

Unfortunately not. Have a look at gridwatch.co.uk to see how thin the yellow solar sliver is.

Think it assumes you have your own solar generator. Then it doesn't matter how much solar the grid is producing. I actually forced started my ASHP today as the yellow ball in the sky was producing plenty 

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Think it assumes you have your own solar generator. Then it doesn't matter how much solar the grid is producing. I actually forced started my ASHP today as the yellow ball in the sky was producing plenty 

Yep if you've got you're own and want to use it for luxuries like AC then fill your boots. But if you think the grids got plenty of spare solar on a sunny summers day that's a bit away from reality sadly

[Beelbeebub]

How about if A2A installs got some subsidy, say £3k, as long as the cooling function was locked off at 30C (or whatever) so you couldn't set a cooling temp below that. 

 

The we would have cooling for proper heat waves where people start to have real heath concerns, which is worth the extra energy hit, but it wouldn't get used for most of the time. 

 

If you chucked in a noise level limit to qualify but removed the planning permission requirement for "approved" units that would go a long way to helping 

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Yep if you've got you're own and want to use it for luxuries like AC then fill your boots. But if you think the grids got plenty of spare solar on a sunny summers day that's a bit away from reality sadly

 

As identified by JohnMo, i was talking about your own solar, not the grids.

 

Ie, your own solar panels will be at peak production when you are at peak air con demand.

 

 

[DamonHD]

In California at least as I understand things, the "duck curve" is made worse by demand for cooling continuing for some time after the sun has set.  PV+batteries+cooling should be much better in this regard than PV+cooling alone.