Early days in starting our barn conversion journey

[fluffnstuff]

We have been looking for a property or land for some time but we are complete novices. We at the very start of the process of buying a barn to convert, it has outline planning permission which gives us a lot of information and a degree of confidence. However we are still a bit clueless and this site has already been invaluable in getting information so I thought I would say a quick hello before reading more about self build mortgages and what surveys I should be organising at the moment 👋

 

 

[LSB]

hello and welcome, look forward to learning more about your plans.

where abouts are you located in the country, north, south, east or west

 

[ToughButterCup]

27 minutes ago, fluffnstuff said:

... We at the very start of the process of buying a barn to convert, it has outline planning permission ...  what surveys I should be organising at the moment

 

Here are a few ideas to get you started. No particular order because everything relates to everything else.

 

A simple eyeball inspection.

• Where is it in relation to : neighbours (access ownership) , geology (slope, water table, wind, trees, clay, sand, ) all will have an effect on build cost.
• Services : no foul drain disposal - no house, where's the nearest electricity, water, fiber, phone
• Trees: TPOs? heave? age - survey them maybe
• Noise: downwind of a motorway, railway line, airport, 
• Structure: look and worry ,or look and 'feel' its in good nick
• How far are you from a pond (newts or worse, GCNs) . Or bats, or anything fluffy that ecologists pretend to look after?

Technical :by that I mean any dicipline which attracts Professional Indemnity Insurance

• Structural  Survey: choose a surveyor with great care - ask for a fee proposal and an exact definition of the aspects to be surveyed - from at least three reputable firms
• Law: usual stuff - boundary disputes? access rights
• Do you need an architect - or architectural technician?
• Ground around the barn iffy? Wet, dry .... get a reputable ground worker
• Which surveyour does your mortgage company use (if relevant)

Ask around. Who knows what about the history of the place? Estate Agent? Network in the local pub - emphasis on work and listening

Best of luck,

Ian

Edited November 26, 2023 by ToughButterCup

[Ferdinand]

Hello, good morning, and welcome my Fluffy friend !

 

My comments?

 

1 - Thinking and reflection time really matters - making mistakes is cheaper if it's in a thought experiment.

2 - Get into a habit of being curious about things outside your current experience - known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

3 - See Buttercup's advice.

 

Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

... making mistakes is cheaper if it's in a thought experiment ....

 

There are other terms for the same thing in common use on Buildhub

• Overthinking it
• Sleepless nights
• Worrying
• Monmaniac
• Peptic Ulcer
• Give it a rest sweetheart, its Friday night and the kids need putting to  bed (as usual)
• How much? At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask.

We are what the academic Research  calls a Community of Practice : or Experts by Experience.  But we don't have Professional Indemnity Insurances So 'expert' we aren't. Just hard-bitten, nosey and mostly friendly. 

 

You might want to look at the concept of Due Diligence in some detail. It occurs a lot here (I wish it didn't) - just use the site search engine for a bit a quiet fire-side reading tonight.

 

Or click this link

[Temp]

The government decided the rules on barn conversions should be relaxed some years ago but not all councils and planning officers are so keen. 

 

Is it a Class Q approval or regular Outline Planning Permission or ?

 

If the barn has planning permission for a conversion make sure its sound enough to be converted. Would it need underpinning? Some councils appear to consider underpinning as evidence it needs too much work to be "converted". Others take a more relaxed view. So if down the road Building Control demand it needs underpinning that might invalidate your planning permission. Yes its quite possible for Building Control to insist you do something that the Planning Department won't allow.  I think this is quite rare but quite problematic when it occurs. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

5 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Services : no foul drain disposal - no house, where's the nearest electricity, water, fiber, phone

 

+1

These can sometimes be ridiculously expensive or simply impossible.

 

Check you have the right to lay services over land between you and best connection point. 

 

If in any doubt about any service ask on the forum for advice on alternatives. 

[fluffnstuff]

13 hours ago, Temp said:

The government decided the rules on barn conversions should be relaxed some years ago but not all councils and planning officers are so keen. 

 

Is it a Class Q approval or regular Outline Planning Permission or ?

 

If the barn has planning permission for a conversion make sure its sound enough to be converted. Would it need underpinning? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's regular outline planning.

 

During that there was a structural survey done that said the floor was sound but we might wanted to replace it with limecrete for a reason around damp and flint clump walls. No mention of underpinning but that doesn't mean it isn't wasn't looked at.

 

Thanks for all the information, super useful 

[fluffnstuff]

19 hours ago, LSB said:

hello and welcome, look forward to learning more about your plans.

where abouts are you located in the country, north, south, east or west

 

We are going to make the move from Kent up to east Anglia after finding this barn. 

[fluffnstuff]

13 hours ago, Temp said:

 

+1

These can sometimes be ridiculously expensive or simply impossible.

 

Check you have the right to lay services over land between you and best connection point. 

 

If in any doubt about any service ask on the forum for advice on alternatives. 

 

The outline planning seems to suggest we install a personal treatment plant for waste water not sure about fresh, there's an electricity pole on the plot .... If the electricity is coming via the farm could we get detached from them somehow?

 

Definitely need to think about the internet, good call.

[IanR]

50 minutes ago, fluffnstuff said:

During that there was a structural survey done

 

The Structural surveys completed for planning or paid for by the applicant, who of course is paying for a survey that states the building is capable for conversion.

 

If there's any doubt, I'd suggest you getting your own survey so that you can rely on it. My own LPA is very prescriptive about how much of the original building must remain within the new conversion, and have been known to put a stop notice on a conversion if challenges are met during the build that may change what was stated at the planning stage.

 

What conditions are there on the OP? Brown field sites would normally require a contamination survey prior to commencement. It may get no further than a Stage 1, where there is a desktop search completed and a site walk-over. Has this already been done as part of the planning? If not, it maybe worth getting Stage 1 completed so you know if it highlights any risks that will need to be investigated further. The Stage 2 surveys can cost in the £5K - £10K range, so it's good to know if it needs to be budgeted for, and remedial actions could need a big chuck of budget.

 

Next for me would be assessing the difficulties in getting utilities to the site. Difficult to get costs prior to you owning the site, but if you know your going to have to bring power and fibre 500m across fields, then you need a figure for it in your budget.

Have you investigated the option for re-applying for planning to swap to a knock-down and rebuild? The LPA may consider it, unless the building has historic value. Converting agricultural buildings is typically a compromise that will either cost more to complete or perform poorer than an equivalent new build.

Edited November 27, 2023 by IanR

[ToughButterCup]

Before you do anything else at all, could you answer this question please?

Have you bought the property yet, or made an offer ?

 

The very first thing - and at any event BEFORE purchase - you must establish how the foul drainage will work.  And - if you cannot connect to a mains sewer - how will that drainage system be powered?  In relation to the property, how far away is it from the barn? ( see @Temp's comment above)

 

The response, "Oh, we'll put a digester in" is not good enough.   You need to follow The General Binding Rules ( look them up)... Where will you discharge the 'liquor'?  Is there a local stream?  Read up on all the nightmares about foul drainage here on BH.

 

If someone says that you can 'share' their ('our') sewage system - HERE-BE-DRAGONS. (... detail later if you need it)

 

Everything else can wait.

 

You must instruct your solicitor (or professional handling the purchase)  to get definitive, clear replies to the questions above.  Watch for 'spin' in the replies you get

We will be happy to review the various responses you are given.

 

You might usefully look at the planning history of the barn: how many times has planning permission been applied for? What Conditions have been applied to the property

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, fluffnstuff said:

 

The outline planning seems to suggest we install a personal treatment plant for waste water not sure about fresh, there's an electricity pole on the plot .... If the electricity is coming via the farm could we get detached from them somehow?

 

Definitely need to think about the internet, good call.

 

I love "personal treatment plant". 

 

That would be a dual purpose hot-tub then?

 

2 hours ago, fluffnstuff said:

It's regular outline planning.

 

That gives you two of your types of Unknowns.

 

1 - Everything not guaranteed by the planning process.

 

2 - Everything in "Reserved Matters".

 

What do you know about the farmland? Could you suddenly get 2000 free range pigs or 26,000 chickens next door?

How big is your buffer around the barn? How much land - space to grow big hedges or windbreaks? What guarantees do you have that nothing will be developed agriculturally near your Shangri-La?

[Alan Ambrose]

Well congrats on your potential purchase. We have a barn conversion in East Suffolk and we love it. Some pictures of the structure, plans and the views when you're ready. You might want to add 'location' info to your profile - responses will need to differ depending on where you are and it avoids everyone asking every time where you are building.

[saveasteading]

On 26/11/2023 at 11:14, fluffnstuff said:

We at the very start of the process of buying a barn 

Of course, don't give too much specific info until the purchase is secure.

However, the more you can, the more useful will be the advice.

First questions.

Steel, concrete or timber structure?

What cladding?

Size?

[LSB]

8 hours ago, fluffnstuff said:

 

We are going to make the move from Kent up to east Anglia after finding this barn. 

welcome to EA,  if you are in East Suffolk, be warned, planning is vicious, just ask a few people on here who have appliced there

 

[Temp]

I'm in East Anglia. Lot of clay here and soakaway don't always work. The didn't on my site but there is a piped ditch along the edge of the road we were allowed to discharge into (after offering to install a rain water recycling tank). Fortunately we have mains sewer for foul water.

 

Definitely ask the seller if a Percolation test has been done or consider getting one done. Perhaps ask the seller if he has access to a digger as that would reduce cost. They will ask if you have one when you ask for a quote.

 

 

[fluffnstuff]

Wow the amount of information and things to consider is absolute gold 🪙 Thank you

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Temp said:

....

Definitely ask the seller if a Percolation test has been done or consider getting one done. Perhaps ask the seller if he has access to a digger as that would reduce cost. They will ask if you have one when you ask for a quote.

 

@Temp is  being diplomatic. Get  a properly constituted Percolation Test done even if someone tells you one has been done. The job should take about 2 person days, and cost about £350.

 

The softer and smellier the job, the higher the chance of dealing with charlatans. Have a read of my blog. (In West Lancs) it is quite normal for people in this sector to lie. Nobody polices the results. 

 

Digger per day cost - £190 + transport (£50) + VAT

Day rate for genuine ground worker £150

 

Ask for photographic evidence. 

[fluffnstuff]

On 27/11/2023 at 13:15, saveasteading said:

Of course, don't give too much specific info until the purchase is secure.

However, the more you can, the more useful will be the advice.

First questions.

Steel, concrete or timber structure?

What cladding?

Size?

It's timber with flint, lump clay walls. The size is a bit strange but the main part of the barn has a footprint of around 80 msq

[fluffnstuff]

17 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

@Temp is  being diplomatic. Get  a properly constituted Percolation Test done even if someone tells you one has been done. The job should take about 2 person days, and cost about £350.

 

The softer and smellier the job, the higher the chance of dealing with charlatans. Have a read of my blog. (In West Lancs) it is quite normal for people in this sector to lie. Nobody polices the results. 

 

Digger per day cost - £190 + transport (£50) + VAT

Day rate for genuine ground worker £150

 

Ask for photographic evidence. 

 

On 27/11/2023 at 07:52, ToughButterCup said:

Before you do anything else at all, could you answer this question please?

Have you bought the property yet, or made an offer ?

 

The very first thing - and at any event BEFORE purchase - you must establish how the foul drainage will work.  And - if you cannot connect to a mains sewer - how will that drainage system be powered?  In relation to the property, how far away is it from the barn? ( see @Temp's comment above)

 

The response, "Oh, we'll put a digester in" is not good enough.   You need to follow The General Binding Rules ( look them up)... Where will you discharge the 'liquor'?  Is there a local stream?  Read up on all the nightmares about foul drainage here on BH.

 

If someone says that you can 'share' their ('our') sewage system - HERE-BE-DRAGONS. (... detail later if you need it)

 

Everything else can wait.

 

You must instruct your solicitor (or professional handling the purchase)  to get definitive, clear replies to the questions above.  Watch for 'spin' in the replies you get

We will be happy to review the various responses you are given.

 

You might usefully look at the planning history of the barn: how many times has planning permission been applied for? What Conditions have been applied to the property

Thank you for all of the advice, we will definitely look into this more. Would it be a super naïve noob approach to think we dig a pond and even add further filtering with reeds and/or willow beds? 

 

I definitely need to do more research on this topic (and percolation tests)

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Temp said:

access to a digger as that would reduce cost. 

Maybe it's just my comfort zone, but drainage wouldn't concern me as much as the structure:

IF you have room to drain into.

A pond is good for rainwater but can't accept treated waste water.

A reed bed has to be huge, and it is very likely a commercial treatment tank will be much cheaper and less concern.

As above, a percolation test needs holes in the ground, buckets of water and a calculator. If the ground is heavy clay, then drainage can get tricky.

If you are on heavy clay.

[Alan Ambrose]

For a quick read on type of soil, drainage etc you can ask any or all of building control, local builders, the seller, neighbours, septic tank emptying companies, british geological society bore hole records etc etc. All quick and free. Won’t give you a 100% read, but if two or three agree, you’re probably home and dry.

 

A good solicitor will also check utilities and drainage records / easements etc for you.

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, saveasteading said:

A reed bed has to be huge

I wouldn't say huge. We had a Klagester Reed Bed System, for six people output, it was two tanks, IIRC 2.5m long by 0.8m wide and the BCO sanctioned the tertiary treated effluent to be piped into a soakaway.

 

https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en/products/water-management/reed-beds/

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, fluffnstuff said:

....  Would it be a super naïve noob approach to think we dig a pond and even add further filtering with reeds and/or willow beds? ....

 

Reed beds are useful .... but there are some down-sides to them - but that's too much detail  at the moment.

 

It will help you to read up on SUDS (Sustainable Urban Drainage) ... here's a good start

https://www.susdrain.org/delivering-suds/using-suds/suds-components/wetlands/wetlands-overview.html