Fire alarm HMO

[Pocster]

Hey all!

 

It's my 5 year HMO electrical inspection check!

The wiring passed (hurrah!); but he failed the emergency lighting and fire alarm.

He said they don't meet the regs (exact details to follow once I receive them(. What concerns me more is that he says they failed the regs from 5 years ago! i.e. when the original installer put them in.

My question is assuming he is correct do I have a valid legal case to pursue here?

Council 'approved' his paperwork - but obviously the installation was incorrect. technically tenants would have been living in a property that breached fire regs for 5 years; though not the landlords fault surely!!????

 

Any advice welcome!

[Nickfromwales]

Did you get a certificate from said installer 5 years ago ?

[Pocster]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Did you get a certificate from said installer 5 years ago ?

Well they produce a kind of certificate I.e the council accepted it ...

[ProDave]

What are they saying is wrong? not enough EM lights?, lights not lasting long enough (worn out battery packs?, not enough fire detectors and alarms etc?

[Pocster]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

What are they saying is wrong? not enough EM lights?, lights not lasting long enough (worn out battery packs?, not enough fire detectors and alarms etc?

From memory ( full report to follow ) not enough EM and also they were 240v and should be 12v I think ....

[Pocster]

Also need siren in each room !! . Decibel level must be a certain value in the room with fire door closed . Apparently fire alarm should be a panelled type .... estimate cost 3k !!!!   

[PeterW]

Sounds a bit steep - how many rooms ..??

 

Panels are about £350, sensor and howler should be £50 ish per room. So in a six bed HMO you should be in for £8-900 for materials and £11-1300 for an installation assuming it's surface mounted and nothing too onerous. 

 

No requirement for call points ..?

 

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, pocster said:

From memory ( full report to follow ) not enough EM and also they were 240v and should be 12v I think ....

Every EM light I have seen has been 240V supply, something like 6V batteries driving a T5 tube. More recently they use LED's for the light giving longer battery life.  If this is what they really said, I am beginning to smell BS?

[Nickfromwales]

Let's see the report  

[Ferdinand]

@pocster

 

I think you could be jumping the gun here - apols if I am wrong.

 

1. The regulatory authority for HMOs is the Council, and that is ultimately the party with whom you need to have the conversation about particular requirements. Either the EHOs or perhaps Building Standards. Watch out for EHOs calling their personal opinions / interpretations a legal requirement.

 

2 - If you are committed to being on the right side, then show them your report (which to me sounds questionable even on what you have said). They have much leeway and intepretation etc, but will tell you what they want and which regulations they will enforce.

 

Licensing Schemes are widely abused by Councils to try and enforce all kinds of gold-plating and extra-legal requirements and things the Govt has not required, where over-enthusiastic or prejudiced politicians or not-fully-knowledgeable officers have a personal opinion or a brainstorm, so there may be contradictory requirements.

 

3. We do not have enough info to give answers - we do not even know, for example, what type of HMO it is - small, subject to Mandatory or Additional license under the 2004 Housing Act, a conversion, falls within pre-1991 regulations and so on, or therefore what grade of fire alarm is required.

 

4. Suggest that the HMO or HHSRS Forum of Landlordzone might be a better or extra place to ask. Post full details of the HMO, Council Name and the points from the Report.

 

5 - To me it seems you may be getting some personal opinions or interpretations in your report - validity needs checking (see point 1). I believe the EM requirements are set by BS5266.1:2016 and guidelines built thereupon. I have never met a 12v requirement, and since they are designed to ensure safety and 240v is safe if it is correctly wired, the claimed requirement seems to be gibberish. £3K sounds about right to me for a professionally fitted alarm system in a 6 bed Mandatory License HMO.

 

There are various summaries around by people such as Fire Officers, TLC etc.

 

6 - What quantifiable loss have you suffered in order to be able to pursue a legal case? The Council and tenants will be more interested that it is safe *now*, although where HMO landlords are concerned some Councils love going scalp-hunting.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Pocster]

On 09/09/2017 at 09:38, Ferdinand said:

@pocster

 

I think you could be jumping the gun here - apols if I am wrong.

 

1. The regulatory authority for HMOs is the Council, and that is ultimately the party with whom you need to have the conversation about particular requirements. Either the EHOs or perhaps Building Standards. Watch out for EHOs calling their personal opinions / interpretations a legal requirement.

 

2 - If you are committed to being on the right side, then show them your report (which to me sounds questionable even on what you have said). They have much leeway and intepretation etc, but will tell you what they want and which regulations they will enforce.

 

Licensing Schemes are widely abused by Councils to try and enforce all kinds of gold-plating and extra-legal requirements and things the Govt has not required, where over-enthusiastic or prejudiced politicians or not-fully-knowledgeable officers have a personal opinion or a brainstorm, so there may be contradictory requirements.

 

3. We do not have enough info to give answers - we do not even know, for example, what type of HMO it is - small, subject to Mandatory or Additional license under the 2004 Housing Act, a conversion, falls within pre-1991 regulations and so on, or therefore what grade of fire alarm is required.

 

4. Suggest that the HMO or HHSRS Forum of Landlordzone might be a better or extra place to ask. Post full details of the HMO, Council Name and the points from the Report.

 

5 - To me it seems you may be getting some personal opinions or interpretations in your report - validity needs checking (see point 1). I believe the EM requirements are set by BS5266.1:2016 and guidelines built thereupon. I have never met a 12v requirement, and since they are designed to ensure safety and 240v is safe if it is correctly wired, the claimed requirement seems to be gibberish. £3K sounds about right to me for a professionally fitted alarm system in a 6 bed Mandatory License HMO.

 

There are various summaries around by people such as Fire Officers, TLC etc.

 

6 - What quantifiable loss have you suffered in order to be able to pursue a legal case? The Council and tenants will be more interested that it is safe *now*, although where HMO landlords are concerned some Councils love going scalp-hunting.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

 

Very helpful!

 

Will post the report when I get it. I did assume he was going all overboard because it's a nice earner for them and also it's a belts and braces approach. I am going from memory on the points as he reeled them out over the phone - and I was in shock from the 3k quote!. I find it VERY strange he says you *need* sounders in each occupied room but not a smoke alarm!!!

 

Cheers

 

[Pocster]

Right!

 

Some figures!

The first thing that seems expensive (though I maybe be wrong!);

 

They won't issue an electrical pass certificate unless I pay £500 for...

 

RDC 100mA rated should be 30mA

no voltage label

no periodic inspection label

no cable colour change label

no RCD test label

 

Now!; £500 for a new RCD and some labels after a £300 inspection fee doesn't sound right!

 

By contrast!

EM lighting 1st floor landing, 2nd floor landing , ground floor and reposition entrance hallway one (all EM's replaced) 215+VAT

 

I feel like I'm over a barrel because just to get the electrics passed will cost me another 500. Surely a new RCD and some labelling isn't THAT much work???

 

Fire alarm at 3k+VAT!; I'll just get other quotes for!

[ProDave]

As with all things, you have the option of a different electrician.

 

Are there other rcd's or rcbo's in the consumer unit? (picture of your CU?)

 

A 100mA up front rcd is usually fitted up front on a TT earth install. There might well be others e.g feeding sockets and showers. If not, upgrading by changing to an rcbo for those circuits may be the cheapest option.  Hell for £500 I would expect a new consumer unit, not just an rcd change.

 

Making such a fuss over the labels is a bit like an MOT tester saying your seat belt is very slightly worn and needs replacing. I would replace the MOT tester.

 

Do the EM lights need replacing because they are dud (batteries dead) or because there are not enough or in the wrong places?

[Pocster]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

As with all things, you have the option of a different electrician.

 

Are there other rcd's or rcbo's in the consumer unit? (picture of your CU?)

 

A 100mA up front rcd is usually fitted up front on a TT earth install. There might well be others e.g feeding sockets and showers. If not, upgrading by changing to an rcbo for those circuits may be the cheapest option.  Hell for £500 I would expect a new consumer unit, not just an rcd change.

 

Do the EM lights need replacing because they are dud (batteries dead) or because there are not enough or in the wrong places?

Oh yeah another electrician. But then I'll have to pay another inspection fee !! - I assume he won't just take the previous one for granted will he ??

 

will get a photo of the cu unit. No electric showers or anything unusual .

 

i only have one em ; apparently that's faulty and I need more I.e 1 on each landing 

 

thanks !

Edited September 12, 2017 by pocster

[Jeremy Harris]

Some do make a fuss over labels................

 

We had an interim building inspector (a guy brought back from retirement, part time) who produced a fail list as long as your arm.  He started by saying that he didn't believe that a house built on a polystyrene block foundation was "safe", and one of his comments was that the labels on the consumer units and switches were unclear (as a consequence they all have nicely printed laminated labels now).

 

Sometimes you just get a jobsworth, and either have to deal with him or get someone else.  I thought that any qualified electrician could do the inspection and testing needed for a job like this, and any remedial work needed, can't they?

[ProDave]

Talk to other electricians. They certainly should be able to do the remedial work. And with a recent test report to work from, their own test should not take so long.

[Pocster]

It's an rcd / rcbo type b apparently:-)

[Pocster]

Here's the full report! - probably more helpful!

 

 

16 Laxey Road.pdf

[dpmiller]

so only the downstairs sockets have 30mA protection?

 

something not quite right there then. I'd have expected at least the shower to also be @30mA. Best wait for @ProDave to have a look...

[ProDave]

Sorry, you need a different electrician.

 

"C2= Potentially dangerous, Urgent remedial action required."

 

A missing label is NOT dangerous.  His coding that as a C2 imho makes everything else he says very dubious and not to be trusted.

 

Some observations may be true, but I no longer trust his judgement. Sorry to say he sounds like the dodgy mot tester looking for trivial faults.

 

What does @Onoff think?

 

Regardless, the missing rcd protection from some circuits can be fixed with a few rcbo's at a LOT less than £500, no need to change that up front 100mA rcd.

[Pocster]

19 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

so only the downstairs sockets have 30mA protection?

 

something not quite right there then. I'd have expected at least the shower to also be @30mA. Best wait for @ProDave to have a look...

Edited September 12, 2017 by pocster

[Pocster]

10 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Sorry, you need a different electrician.

 

"C2= Potentially dangerous, Urgent remedial action required."

 

A missing label is NOT dangerous.  His coding that as a C2 imho makes everything else he says very dubious and not to be trusted.

 

Some observations may be true, but I no longer trust his judgement. Sorry to say he sounds like the dodgy mot tester looking for trivial faults.

 

What does @Onoff think?

 

Regardless, the missing rcd protection from some circuits can be fixed with a few rcbo's at a LOT less than £500, no need to change that up front 100mA rcd.

Much appreciate your feedback 

my gut feeling was I'm being taken for an expensive ride ...

[Onoff]

Late to this, fighting off man flu or something. 

 

The C2 ref the voltage sticker missing: These stickers are lets face it yellow to warn of a hazard or danger. Deeming it C2 as in potentially dangerous...well it's only a danger if you take the lid off but then without it there is no other warning. Maybe I'm in a pedantic mood but I don't disagree.

 

Get a couple of other quotes from reputable electricians. 

 

Be interested in the board layout. Is that 100mA RCD before all the mcbs but not the rcbo? If it is before the rcbo as well you could have a potential discrimination problem between the 30mA and the 100mA unless the 100mA is time delay / S type.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Onoff
ma to mA

[Jeremy Harris]

FWIW, I found a load of left-over hazard stickers in the skip after the PV installer had been - he'd just used some from a sheet and binned the rest, and the left overs were more than enough for me to stick on the cover of anything that needed it..  There's no good reason why you can't just go around sticking the appropriate warning stickers on where they are missing.  You can get them from any electrical stockist, or probably even ebay.

 

I see he failed the CU for being combustible.  Do the regs now require older plastic CUs to be changed on inspection to comply with current regs?  I thought there was a "grandfather" provision, that allowed a pre-existing, signed off, installation to retain things like cable with the old colours (with the appropriate sticker), plastic CU's etc?  If this is the case then I will need to get our CU changed, as it is plastic and was installed before the regs changed.

[ProDave]

No requirement to change CU's to non combustible, bur a LOT of electricians seem to think so and C2 it then charge you for an unecessarry CU change.  I was offered the remedials from a landlords EICR and that was one of the things he had put. I challenged the original electrician and he changed it to a C3.

 

I still don't agree a missing sticker is a C2, if it is this industry has gone barmy.