Sensible house build

[morsing]

Hi all,

 

We live in Buckinghamshire and we are disillusioned with British houses. Main issues are:

 

- No thought put into layout and usability

- No utility rooms

- Virtually no insulation, even on new builds

- Old fashioned

- Low quality

 

So were have been thinking about having our own built and have been in touch with Ström Architects who seem good but expensive.

 

We're not into Grand Designs. To me, that is bling over substance. My sister had their house designed and built and we are thinking something similar. It is a flat-roofed bungalow:

 

 

Top down view:

 

 

 

We're struggling a bit to find a plot though, amazingly difficult.

 

Ström said 3-6 months to prepare land and build, which aligns with the time-line for my sister's house of around 4 months (not with Ström).

 

I'm curious to know though, as anyone we mention these plans to always go off on a tangent with horror stories, why do people seem to always get stuck in dead-end, seven year projects, twice over budget? It didn't happen to my sister, and Ström also seem quite clear on cost. They must know from having done this many time before.

 

We were also considering either living in a static caravan on site (would need hooking up somehow) or building a more permanent cabin that can also be used in the future.

 

Regards,

Henrik Morsing

[JohnMo]

Are you sure 4 months is realistic? I would expect a good quality build to take way longer. Ours although I did a lot myself took a year. Prior to that the person we bought the land from took 5 years to get planning in place, we took another 10 months for the council to allow us start the build (building warrant). In that 10 months we took about 3 months clearing and levelling the site.

 

Things will start to move the budget if you change things, after starting, one change means, 10 other things have a change, or can seem like it.

[Square Feet]

I wouldn't necessarily knock Grand Designs - there's quite a lot of projects on there that are fantastic examples of good, simple architecture that can be built at a good price and timescale. 

If you go on the Channel 4 app you can find all the old episodes to watch there for free (though I think £3.50 a month for ad-free watching is well worth it).

 

These are some episodes I like for their simplicity and being good examples of straight-forward good architecture without ego or bling.

 

Leominster 2018

North Cornwall revisit 2015

Woodbridge revisit 2013

County Down 2017

East London 2017

[SteamyTea]

Good luck getting a reliable flat roof made in England.

[Square Feet]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Are you sure 4 months is realistic?

I think they must mean 4 months for the house to be erected on site after foundations etc. And this must be with the majority of construction work being off site and craned in. 

[twice round the block]

Good luck trying to find a plot in Bucks at a reasonable cost. Join the queue behind small developers and investment companies.

Best option is probably to buy an existing house and demolish it.

[Andehh]

Buy and knock down is an easier route, pay a bit more but likely less issues with planning, services and timing. Virgin plots will be fought over.

[miike]

Strom are one of the top end architects. I'm pretty sure I read someone on here saying they got told by Strom that they don't work with people with less than a £3.5k pm budget, and that was a few years ago when things were cheaper. But if you can afford them, I think their houses look great. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, morsing said:

Ström said 3-6 months to prepare land and build, which aligns with the time-line for my sister's house of around 4 months (not with Ström).

That would be remarkable unless it is all built as a kit. Right now I need convincing.

 

2 hours ago, morsing said:

why do people seem to always get stuck in dead-end, seven year projects, twice over budget? It didn't happen to my sister, and Ström also seem quite clear on cost.

 

I'd say because £3,500 /ft2 is very expensive, so very easy to achieve. Do the Architects and their own PM fees come on top?

Not that we know the actual costs.

 

And programme? These all look the same  ( based on Barcelona Bauhaus I'd  say, which I like) . So Its easy for them to standardise designs and details.

S

These are 1 year projects though.

I would confidently tell a client 16 months from first contact to handover,  including 12 weeks at planning, usjng their rules.  And make a lot of money.

 

If they have a close relationship with a frame builder, then this will aid speed too, but at a cost.

 

I recommend a look at their website. 

In particular that you must delegate all decisions to them.

A polite term for their image might be  'self confident'.

 

There can't be much overlap between their market and BH.

 

I'd love to hear more, esp if my assumptions are wrong.

 

 

[JohnMo]

26 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

In particular that you must delegate all decisions to them.

I went to get a couple of quotes before we started our build, basically told by two companies, that once they start building, I had to be invited to site, I wasn't allowed to enter unless expressly invited and there would be no decisions to make during the build. May suit some, so called 'self builders' but not me. I ran a mile.

[Alan Ambrose]

We would typically advise that one of our house designs starts at around £3,500/ m2, but can quickly go north, depending on the site, location, design, specification, and what one actually includes in this cost. We would also advise that you may want to consider an allowance for fit-out (built-in furniture, curtains and blinds, loose furniture etc.) and landscaping ... Typical fees range from 8-15% of build cost.

 

They look cool-ish, but there clearly is a very 'Ström' style - long thin flat glassy box anyone?

[saveasteading]

 

we often see costs of about £2,000/ m2 brandished about.

For a truly bespoke one-off project, these costs are - in our experience - not feasible

 

We would advise that you need to budget a around of £4,500/ m2, but can quickly go north for high-end projects.

 

Then plus for their fees 8 to 15%, other consultants and they don't mention drainage.

 

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

once they start building, I had to be invited to site, 

To me that isn't silly. Imagine a client clambering through the building with the kids on a weekend. 

 

But there should be a willingness to escort the client.

 

Most contracts make it clear that the site is the responsibility of the contractor.

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Interesting - inconsistent website? That means, £900K+ for 200 m^2. I guess for big city pricing, that's not crazy high.

 

Which suggests either clients who don't really care much about the economics or somewhere where land values are very high. Curiously though they all look like 'houses in the country'.

[saveasteading]

25 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Big city pricing, that's not crazy high.

More likely it's London money, spent on their 'other' house in the country.

 

27 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

inconsistent website? 

I found my quote while searching for cost indications that I couldn't find in the website. Perhaps hyperlinks or old pages?

With the sort if funds that would allow this approach, I'd guess projects are typically 400m2.

400 x £4500

+15% externals

+ 10% other costs?

+15% fee

 

Approx £2.6M ?

Divide back by 400 = £6,500/m2.

 

I'll do it for £5,000/m2 all up if anyone's interested.

[SteamyTea]

20 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I'll do it for £5,000/m2 all up if anyone's interested

£4999.99.

A Dutch Auction is an effective way to find out how much cash people have to spend 

[morsing]

Good morning and thanks for the comments.

 

Not sure why cost was brought up, I was mostly interested in time-scales and planning. It seems like planning permission is what generally causes problems. What in particular? Annoying neighbours? Council? And why? Hopefully a fairly low, un-obtrusive bungalow won't be too offensive.

 

Speaking to Ström and explaining what we were after, they said £3 500 - £4 000/m2 but I hadn't shown them a photo, so without the glass and fancy stuff they normally do, I am hopping with their fees we can stay around £4 000/m2. Yes, drains, electrics, water, Internet, etc will very much depend on how far away the plot is from other buildings and roads.

 

On 30/10/2023 at 12:15, JohnMo said:

Are you sure 4 months is realistic? I would expect a good quality build to take way longer. Ours although I did a lot myself took a year. Prior to that the person we bought the land from took 5 years to get planning in place, we took another 10 months for the council to allow us start the build (building warrant). In that 10 months we took about 3 months clearing and levelling the site.

 

Things will start to move the budget if you change things, after starting, one change means, 10 other things have a change, or can seem like it.

 

I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't over six months. And it is superb quality, they have lived there ten years this year, and it wasn't a kit either. Built on site.

 

Ok, so council planning takes time, got it. Fair enough, my sister's plot was a new road built and prepared by the council with fixed plots. So pre-approved planning (almost) and land already prepared, cleared and with utilities coming in.

On 30/10/2023 at 12:19, Square Feet said:

I wouldn't necessarily knock Grand Designs - there's quite a lot of projects on there that are fantastic examples of good, simple architecture that can be built at a good price and timescale. 

If you go on the Channel 4 app you can find all the old episodes to watch there for free (though I think £3.50 a month for ad-free watching is well worth it).

 

These are some episodes I like for their simplicity and being good examples of straight-forward good architecture without ego or bling.

 

Leominster 2018

North Cornwall revisit 2015

Woodbridge revisit 2013

County Down 2017

East London 2017

 

Cool, will have a look at those, thanks.

 

On 30/10/2023 at 13:48, twice round the block said:

Good luck trying to find a plot in Bucks at a reasonable cost. Join the queue behind small developers and investment companies.

Best option is probably to buy an existing house and demolish it.

 

Many cool plots have sold on auction for £30 - 40 000 in the year we have been looking. Cost isn't the problem, it's location.

 

And buying an £800 000 house only to knock it down is way, way out of our budget.

 

On 30/10/2023 at 16:21, saveasteading said:

I'll do it for £5,000/m2 all up if anyone's interested.

 

At non-British standards? I'm not joking, the people we have had come out to our current house to do work, especially the bathroom, all use WWII building techniques. The bathroom company was definitely a higher end place, spent £21 000 on it, and they were the only place I found that had even heard of tanking. Despite this, the installer did it all wrong and I had to spend a late night doing it myself.

 

On 30/10/2023 at 14:28, miike said:

Strom are one of the top end architects. I'm pretty sure I read someone on here saying they got told by Strom that they don't work with people with less than a £3.5k pm budget, and that was a few years ago when things were cheaper. But if you can afford them, I think their houses look great. 

 

Not sure what you mean by £3.5kpm? And we're not planning 400m2. When I spoke to the director she was happy to take on our £900 000 project. If, after some more initial meetings they turn out to be too expensive, we will just have to find someone else. Quality being my main concern such as someone's comment here (that I now can't find) about British flat roofs. Flat roofs have been standard for 3-4 decades in other countries with no issues. I'd rather pay someone like Ström extra to make sure it won't cause problems.

 

But good to hear comments, it prepares me a bit for talking to Ström again if we manage to find a plot.

 

Regards,

Henrik Morsing

[Bozza]

Though I didn’t build with them, have a look at https://www.dan-wood.co.uk/en

 

They have a few flat roof bungalows.  They have prices but you need to add on cost of kitchen, foundations and other costs say maybes £50-60k.

 

The horror stories on Grand Designs seem to be folk trying to do unusual builds, restrictive ideas, or getting their priorities wrong.   Keeping things straightforward mitigates this, as does fixed price contracts.  Last weeks grand designers flew-to Morocco to import hand made floor tiles but they couldn’t afford to build bedrooms for their children.  

 

Where costs go out of control is when self builders are more ambitious than their budget allows.  Build within your means.  Identify key sensible must haves eg structure, insulation, quality windows.  then have a wish list of things you would like to have but must be prepared to compromise on eg kitchens, flooring etc.  Or don’t and spend more.

 

We are very happy with our self build and ended on budget.  But we were stubborn and made decisions with budget being a priority in that decision.
 

 

 

 

[Bozza]

34 minutes ago, morsing said:

Not sure why cost was brought up

Because in your original post you referenced projects going over budget, your architects quotes seem expensive and in your post and you called you post “sensible house build” all suggesting budget/cost is relevant

[miike]

9 minutes ago, Bozza said:

Because in your original post you referenced projects going over budget, your architects quotes seem expensive and in your post and you called you post “sensible house build” all suggesting budget/cost is relevant

They also mention in their last post about seeing plots going for £30-40k. If they’re looking at the very bottom of the market, price wise, for plots, then it’s probably worth pointing out when an architect they’re looking at is at the other end of the spectrum. 
 

@morsing Just to prepare yourself on planning time lines, I bought a plot already with planning permission. I applied to change the design to a more contemporary one and it took 2 years from the app being verified to receiving approval. The actual building work is straightforward in comparison. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, morsing said:

non-British standards? I'm not joking, 

I wasn't really joking either. That would be easily achievable.

 

So British standards included. Exceeding them welcomed.

 

Architect, Engineer included. Fixed price for construction.

 

I doubt it will ever happen though if you don't have any plot in mind other than at very low prices.   These tend to be problem sites that won't get permission.

 

Do PM if this goes further.

 

[torre]

On 30/10/2023 at 12:03, morsing said:

We're struggling a bit to find a plot though, amazingly difficult... Many cool plots have sold on auction for £30 - 40 000 in the year we have been looking. Cost isn't the problem, it's location.

 

When you say 'plot' I assume at those prices you mean land without planning permission? I'd expect a plot with outline permission to cost several times more than that, so bear in mind that without planning permission, the price reflects the risk/likelihood of obtaining permission at all and you'll also need to factor in the time and effort you'll need to invest in attempting to get permission to build at all.

 

Also, don't underestimate what neighbours and planners may object to - it's unlikely your home will look like the rest of the street scene, so even assuming you get permission to build at all, you'll have another battle to get what you want. 

 

On 30/10/2023 at 12:03, morsing said:

plans to always go off on a tangent with horror stories, why do people seem to always get stuck in dead-end, seven year projects, twice over budget

 

For many reasons, not least because they buy a problem site - if you want to complete a build in a reasonable timescale you may need to consider allocating a much larger proportion of your budget to buy a plot with planning permission. Good luck with your project, but I wouldn't get too wedded to a particular design until you're sure of the site you're building on and your remaining budget at that point.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, morsing said:

Not sure why cost was brought up

Because you have  grabbed our group interest.

1. you suggest projects go twice over budget. Most don't.

3 You brought up Strom. New to me and it has been interesting. I had no idea people spent ( or charged) that much.

[morsing]

 Hi,

 

Thanks for the thoughts. I see why costs was brought up. I didn't realise I was looking at cheap problem plots, I had been going on onthemarket over the last year setting pricing between £0-100k having no idea what it should cost, and most plots were £20-40k so assumed that was what to expect.

 

Even if they come with planning permission, they wouldn't come with permission for our specific design though? I'm hoping a very low (height-wise) and low-key bungalow would attract less arguments.

 

We have been looking at this a couple of times (potentially offering to buy half of it):

 

West Leith Land for sale - £100,000 (onthemarket.com)

 

But when I called the agent, he said there was alpacas on it and we'd never get planning permission for a property. I find that statement extremely odd, what is he basing that on?

 

Regards,

Henrik Morsing

[Alan Ambrose]

Unlikely unless it's within an existing village boundary. You could ask a local planning consultant or your LPA (if they are friendly) for a first-cut impression.