Registered neighbouring properties deeds are incorrect. What are the options?

[flanagaj]

We are purchasing a property that has a shared septic tank which is shared by two neighbouring properties.   The property is unregistered, and in the old title deeds dated 1920 it clearly makes reference to the two properties having to pay a 1/3 share towards the maintenance of the septic tank.  But when I downloaded the title deeds of said neighbouring properties from the land registry, it just states the following.

The land edged yellow on the filed plan has the benefit of the following rights reserved by a Conveyance of land lying to the north of the land in this title known as Mertesse dated 11 January 1971 made between (1) Sir Henry Christopher Carden (Vendor) (2) Sir Henry Christopher Carden and others (Trustees) and (3) George Sidney Fishlock and Claire Louise Fishlock (Purchasers):- "subject nevertheless to (i) the rights for the owner or occupier of Number 1 Church Cottages East Woodhay aforesaid to the running of water and soil through the drain running from Number 1 Church Cottages into the septic tank situatated in the garden of the property hereby conveyed (the line of such drain and the position of such septic tank being shown by a broken red line ending with a square on the plan annexed hereto) and (2) to the right of the owner or occupiers of Number 1 Church Cottages to use the said septic tank"

 

So it looks like someone somewhere has made a mistake.  Keen to understand whether this means the neighbouring properties have a legal write to free sewage disposal at our (prospective purchasers) expense?

[nod]

 

16 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

We are purchasing a property that has a shared septic tank which is shared by two neighbouring properties.   The property is unregistered, and in the old title deeds dated 1920 it clearly makes reference to the two properties having to pay a 1/3 share towards the maintenance of the septic tank.  But when I downloaded the title deeds of said neighbouring properties from the land registry, it just states the following.

The land edged yellow on the filed plan has the benefit of the following rights reserved by a Conveyance of land lying to the north of the land in this title known as Mertesse dated 11 January 1971 made between (1) Sir Henry Christopher Carden (Vendor) (2) Sir Henry Christopher Carden and others (Trustees) and (3) George Sidney Fishlock and Claire Louise Fishlock (Purchasers):- "subject nevertheless to (i) the rights for the owner or occupier of Number 1 Church Cottages East Woodhay aforesaid to the running of water and soil through the drain running from Number 1 Church Cottages into the septic tank situatated in the garden of the property hereby conveyed (the line of such drain and the position of such septic tank being shown by a broken red line ending with a square on the plan annexed hereto) and (2) to the right of the owner or occupiers of Number 1 Church Cottages to use the said septic tank"

 

So it looks like someone somewhere has made a mistake.  Keen to understand whether this means the neighbouring properties have a legal write to free sewage disposal at our (prospective purchasers) expense?

Homes being sold locally to me With septic tanks are being forced to upgrade to treatment plants before the sale goes through 

[flanagaj]

I am not sure that is 100% correct.  I have not seen anything on the DEFRA literature that states that you need to do this.  It would be great if this was the case, but not convinced.   I am sure it only relates to systems that drain into a water course and not those that use a drainage field which is away from a water course.

[ProDave]

You only have to upgrade a septic tank if it discharges to a water course.

 

But in Scotland, SEPA have admitted they are not enforcing it.

[IanR]

In England, if the septic tank has not been altered since 2015, and assuming there is no EA Permit, then the only additional rule you must now meet is that it must discharge to a correctly sized (to BS 6297:2007) drainage field. It can not discharge to a water course. If you are selling a property with a septic tank you must inform the buyer, in writing, all details about the system (General Binding rules sets that out)

 

Since it's a criminal act to run a private sewage system and not meet the General Binding Rules, then when a property is sold that has a system that doesn't meet them, the parties should agree who will upgrade the system and make it a condition of sale.

 

2 hours ago, flanagaj said:

We are purchasing a property that has a shared septic tank which is shared by two neighbouring properties.   The property is unregistered, and in the old title deeds dated 1920 it clearly makes reference to the two properties having to pay a 1/3 share towards the maintenance of the septic tank.  But when I downloaded the title deeds of said neighbouring properties from the land registry, it just states the following.

 

Do you or your neighbour have a copy of the "Conveyance of land lying to the north of the land in this title known as Mertesse dated 11 January 1971 ". They appear to have brought forward the reserved rights to the current title deed, but not necessarily the condition (covering 1/3 of costs). That 1971 Conveyance should have been sent to the Land Registry when your neighbours property was first Registered. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by IanR

[nod]

13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You only have to upgrade a septic tank if it discharges to a water course.

 

But in Scotland, SEPA have admitted they are not enforcing it.

 

50 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

I am not sure that is 100% correct.  I have not seen anything on the DEFRA literature that states that you need to do this.  It would be great if this was the case, but not convinced.   I am sure it only relates to systems that drain into a water course and not those that use a drainage field which is away from a water course.

As Dave says it may be regional how each LA enforce it 

But in Lancashire If the discharge isn’t clean water The tank has to go 

Point of sale seems to be the only practical way of enforcing this 

Personally I would buy a house with a shared septic tank or treatment plant 

 

Our first build had a tank that needed relocating Our solicitor was horrified when I suggested installing a large TP between us both 

I installed a TP for us and a new septic tank for them Which will have to be replaced if they ever move house 

[ProDave]

In Scotland, I had an argument with SEPA when they charged me a ludicrous amount to register an ol septic tank so we could sell a property.  Within seconds of registering it, I received my permit.  My argument was at that point all I had provided was my address and extortionate payment, but no details of what the system was.

 

So I argued the fee was unfair as it was supposed to be a fair cost for the work involved and since the registration was produced instantly with no staff input, the fee should be very small.

 

In discussing my dispute over the fee SEPA told me the fee was to cover the web development to allow such an automatic registration system to operate.  SO I then discussed when would they properly request the details of the now newly registered system to check it complies, and they replied NEVER. Unless there is a complaint of pollution.  But if there was a complaint of pollution they would find it anyway even if not regitered.

 

So the message from that conversation was in Scotland, don't trouble yourself trying to comply with a law that SEPA are completely disinterested in.

[flanagaj]

Seem to have gone off topic on this thread.  I am trying to understand the options regarding the neighbouring properties deeds being incorrect relative to historic copies.

[saveasteading]

15 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

options regarding the neighbouring properties deeds being incorrect relative to historic copies.

It's lawyer stuff. 

You know what you want. They know how to record it.

Deeds can be vague regarding positions and technicalities , and the importance of this subject has increased.

The more you can predefine what you want to clarify, and prepare drawings, the easier it will be, and cheaper.

 

Dimensions from fixed points can clarify locations of boundaries, pipes, tanks etc  Otherwise there is the old issue of the property boundary being defined by a red line, effectively 1m wde.

[ProDave]

The bit I see missing from the neighbours deeds, is the bit requiring them to pay a share of the maintenance costs for the shared septic tank.  Do they play hardball and refuse to contribute each time it is desludged saying their deeds don;t say they have to pay?

[Temp]

Kinda surprised it's not registered. T

21 hours ago, flanagaj said:

Keen to understand whether this means the neighbouring properties have a legal write to free sewage disposal at our (prospective purchasers) expense?

 

Your solicitor should advise what this all means. If necessary he should consult an expert. Covenants and similar are difficult area of law.  I wouldn't like to speculate. Some turn out to be worthless/unenforceable. Others a gold mine. A comma here or a word there can change everything.

 

Dont septic tanks need emptying every 3 to 5 years? I would ask the seller when that was last done and if he has any evidence they paid up. 

 

You could always knock on the neighbours door to introduce yourself, tell them you are thinking of building a house to live in yourself and ask if they know anything about the local schools, Internet, drains...