Alexx Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Good, it is too easy to mark one's own homework. I think that the biggest issue is where the hot water leaves the cylinder, normally at the top, initially the hottest point, horizontal cylinder it comes from the mid point, so the median temperature, though it may be the mean temperature. I guess with the de-strat pump should alleviate a lot that hot spot, which would also be applicable even for a vertical cylinder, I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Just now, Alexx said: I guess with the de-strat pump should alleviate a lot that hot spot, which would also be applicable even for a vertical cylinder, I guess? Yes, and looking at the above images, seems the DHW is taken from the top of the horizontal cylinder. I just modelled the thermal losses, not the usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Looks good, but get the gaps in the insulation foamed up and taped, while you have access. The gaps undo all the hard work being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 minute ago, JohnMo said: Looks good, but get the gaps in the insulation foamed up and taped, while you have access. The gaps undo all the hard work being done. Yeah, that is a lot of work in progress on my side. I must confess that I should have bought gapotape as the amount of mess and dust I'm making with the insulation boards is ridiculous when you try to friction fit them, and I'm using a festool specific for insulation, great kit, but next time I'm defo going for that damn expensive gapotape... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Alexx said: gapotape All you need is a spray foam gun and spray foam. Fill the gaps, trim an hour or so later. Tape all the joints with aluminium tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, JohnMo said: All you need is a spray foam gun and spray foam. Fill the gaps, trim an hour or so later. Tape all the joints with aluminium tape. I do have, and I must say it is the most annoying job ever. Sticks everywhere, when doing the ceiling it is crap to get in properly, I can't get on with it at all. Cleaning the gun is a pain, you use the acetone spray and then eventually there is a transparent crust covering it, it does not matter how often you clean it just after use. Me and the foam gun do not get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, Alexx said: I do have, and I must say it is the most annoying job ever. Sticks everywhere, when doing the ceiling it is crap to get in properly, I can't get on with it at all. Cleaning the gun is a pain, you use the acetone spray and then eventually there is a transparent crust covering it, it does not matter how often you clean it just after use. Me and the foam gun do not get along. The way I do is to force the nozzle into the gap, and slowly withdraw. Keep the flow rate nice and slow. Repeat. Spraying a mist of water make the foam expand more. Slow and steady. I never bother cleaning, just close the nozzle, so when you press the trigger nothing comes out. Do not remove the canister until it's empty. The next day any hard foam I just cut off with a knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 34 minutes ago, Alexx said: Cleaning the gun is a pain, you use the acetone spray Said it many times, acetone is the wrong solvent for polyurethanes. Works well with polyester and vinyl ester, while in the liquid state, but not with polyurethanes at all really. Use dichloromethane, but no one ever listens to me, even though I worked with polyurethane, epoxy, polyester and vinyl ester resins for decades. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Walker Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Said it many times, acetone is the wrong solvent for polyurethanes. Works well with polyester and vinyl ester, while in the liquid state, but not with polyurethanes at all really. Use dichloromethane, but no one ever listens to me, even though I worked with polyurethane, epoxy, polyester and vinyl ester resins for decades. You are correct to say that you should use dichloromethane and yes we (I am anyway) are listening and soaking up your knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: The way I do is to force the nozzle into the gap, and slowly withdraw. Keep the flow rate nice and slow. Repeat. Spraying a mist of water make the foam expand more. Slow and steady. I never bother cleaning, just close the nozzle, so when you press the trigger nothing comes out. Do not remove the canister until it's empty. The next day any hard foam I just cut off with a knife. I tried that as well, but when doing ceilings, and in my case worst, slope, I can't get the can upside down properly to get the foam out. 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Said it many times, acetone is the wrong solvent for polyurethanes. Works well with polyester and vinyl ester, while in the liquid state, but not with polyurethanes at all really. Use dichloromethane, but no one ever listens to me, even though I worked with polyurethane, epoxy, polyester and vinyl ester resins for decades. Why do they sell these acetone/propane sprays as foam gun cleaners? is dichloromethane (I had to do a copy and paste) one of those substances that can be used to make crystal meth hence the reason they do not sell it on amazon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Alexx said: Why do they sell these acetone/propane sprays as foam gun cleaners No idea. It is not used in the PU industry. 7 hours ago, Alexx said: is dichloromethane (I had to do a copy and paste) one of those substances that can be used to make crystal meth hence the reason they do not sell it on amazon They use it to decaffeinate coffee and tea. It used to be sold on eBay. I think Nitomors has it as the active ingredient. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Alexx said: That seems to be the general opinion I've gathered, as long there is a de-strat pump running when the cylinder is being charged, there will be not that much difference. After I've considered all options and the lack of commitment/info from Sunamp, I've decided to stick to a horizontal cylinder. I'm just trying to decide which brand/model I should go for. I'm technical, but this definitely goes beyond my understanding I can grasp the idea, thanks for the extensive write up. I'll definitely re-read this many times once I understand the physics a bit better. I've been checking several models, they can customise the cylinder a bit and get the immersion heater on the side of the body, or even the dome. The rafters are 27.5 degrees. This is my space, with a 600x600 cardboard cut to give a better idea: It looks fine. (Also metric tape. Nice.) What is the height of the highest part inside the studs and I can redraw it accurately? Are you planning on lining the ceiling with more insulation or is that it and I can edit my drawings as applicable. Edited October 20, 2023 by Iceverge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx Posted October 20, 2023 Author Share Posted October 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Iceverge said: It looks fine. (Also metric tape. Nice.) What is the height of the highest part inside the studs and I can redraw it accurately? Are you planning on lining the ceiling with more insulation or is that it and I can edit my drawings as applicable. Yep, metric all the way. Last time the Germans sent stuff to the space station in metric when the Yankees were expecting in imperial, that did not work well 😣 Thanks for helping, very kind of you. Highest point that you can see at floorboard level against the steel beam is 970mm, horizontally from that point measuring 600mm further into the eaves, it becomes 710mm. It I raise the floorboards and get the cylinder and close to the edge to my staircase as possible, it seems to achieve similar clearance. I've asked world heat about their options, they can make a cylinder with a 10mm low profile cradle and the immersion heater on the dome side, which would allow easier maintenance. I'm just checking how big the de-stratratification kit is to confirm I can fit it all. Worst case scenario, I may need to replace the 8x2s with 6x2s. I'm already doing 200mm between centres to be at the far extreme of over engineering it just in case. If after installing the cylinder I have some room, I'll add another layer of 50mm PIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 I think this is what you mean? Telfords Biggest Cylinder (400l/500l) doesn't fit The larger cylinder even with the lower cradle would be fantastically tight if you did want any insulation above it. Their Standard 300l and below will be fine, even with the PIR below the rafters. You may need the immersion relocated/lower cradle as it will be a pain to remove otherwise. No need to stop at 50mm insulation on the underside of the rafters then either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 8 hours ago, Iceverge said: I think this is what you mean? Telfords Biggest Cylinder (400l/500l) doesn't fit The larger cylinder even with the lower cradle would be fantastically tight if you did want any insulation above it. Their Standard 300l and below will be fine, even with the PIR below the rafters. You may need the immersion relocated/lower cradle as it will be a pain to remove otherwise. No need to stop at 50mm insulation on the underside of the rafters then either. Nice, thanks for taking the time to help me with this, much appreciated. What do you use to do these drawings if you don't mind me asking? I've ventured myself into sketchup, but that was a bit of a rabbit hole for me. I've got word back from world heating, they cylinder is a bit longer, and the immersion heater on the dome, plus they can do a cradle that only raises the cylinder by 10mm for some extra pounds. So far, this seems to be the winner. I just need to check if 25 metres of DN25 coil is good enough. I could not get further details from other manufacturers yet on this aspect. Joule emailed me yesterday that they do not have any technical details on their horizontal cylinder, but it works and I can trust them. How come a company that makes the damn thing does not have a single technical detail to pass on?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Yup SketchUp, it's an old version on my PC. I would think a big coil is important but I'm not an expert. There is something to be said for buying as close to a standard product as possible future replacement etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) On 16/10/2023 at 15:28, SteamyTea said: Take a cylinder with a 0.5m diameter ad a 1.2m height. Assuming a U-Value of 0.2 W.m-2.K-1 The drawing above shows 50mm insulation. However 150mm EPS has a U-value of around 0.2 W/m2K. Can you get vacuum panels formed on the curve, or AeroGel blanketing. You'd need something like this to achieve this. My other cry here after my SunAmp on a shelf experience is: Maintenance Access!! Edited November 21, 2023 by TerryE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 On 15/10/2023 at 22:55, Iceverge said: Beat me to it @JohnMo. You'll get poor COP for an ASHP with a Sunamp as you'll be running it too hot. They really work best with higher temp inputs like direct electric, gas etc. How much space does your loft allow you? Could you parallel smaller tanks? ASHP works best with a Big cylinder Big Coil Low storage temps. Why would you need to run it hot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 48 minutes ago, anonymous said: Why would you need to run it hot? Because the material in the sunamp requires a minimum in flow temperature. Basically you have a change phase from solid to liquid and the keep heating. So if the melt temp is 55, all the energy has to be added at 55 or above. Anything below that does not add energy. A water cylinder adds useful heat in a different way as they do not rely on a phase change in the storage material. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 To add to @JohnMo answer that would mean the HP has to run at least at 60 degrees all the time it is heating water which is right at the top of the range of most of them and the COP would be very poor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) On 12/06/2024 at 09:13, ProDave said: o add to @JohnMo answer that would mean the HP has to run at least at 60 degrees all the time it is heating water which is right at the top of the range of most of them and the COP would be very poor. That being said, I believe most ASHPs can be programmed to have a few time slots each day when the ASHP outputs at the higher temperature setting and a Y-plan valve switches between the UCV and the manifold loop, so the CoP is 4, say, when doing the heating, but 2½ say when heating the water. This assumes of course that you using that you are using low temp rads or UFH. But this all adds complexity. @JohnMo or @ProDave will tell us if I am talking rubbish. 🙂 Edited July 18 by TerryE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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