Any YIMBYs on here? Keir Starmer is.......

[ToughButterCup]

Well , since I built in my own backyard, I suppose I am. 

 

You?

[SteamyTea]

From this years June Survey (this is an important agricultural snapshot)

 

We could build on that unused 50 million m²

Crops

• The total area of arable crops saw a 1.3% decrease between 2022 and 2023, falling to just under 3.7 million hectares.
• Cereals account for the majority (70%) of the total arable crop area, covering just under 2.6 million hectares in 2023.
• The area of wheat decreased by 5.3% to 1.58 million hectares, whilst barley increased by 2.2% to 799 thousand hectares.
• The area of oilseed crops increased by 3.4% to 369 thousand hectares in 2023. Oilseed rape accounts for 93% of this area and rose by 6.1% to 342 thousand hectares in 2023.
• Potatoes decreased by 12%, falling to 82 thousand hectares in 2023.

• The remaining arable crops covered 670 thousand hectares. Field beans and maize together account for almost two thirds of this area. Fields beans rose by 1.2% while maize saw a larger increase of 7.5% between 2022 and 2023.

• The area of horticultural crops covers 117 thousand hectares of land, a decrease of 6.3% compared to 2022.

[Nick Thomas]

Quite a few years ago now, I lived somewhere that was getting a large housing estate built directly behind my back garden. The lib dems came a-knocking with a petition to get it stopped and just could not comprehend the idea that I was actually in favour of it being built. Poor souls.

 

 

[ProDave]

One of the things that kept getting mentioned when suggesting where all these new homes are going to be built was "Car parks"  Okay so where will the cars that used to use these car parks, go and park then?

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

so where will the cars that used to use these car parks, go

A car park at ground level can be built over. Sprinklers to be included, unlike at Luton.

[ProDave]

I would not live above a public car park, even if it had sprinklers, unless EV's were banned from entering.

 

But if the policy is build on top of a car park, that is a veiled way of saying most of these new homes will be high rise?

[Nick Thomas]

Something like 5% of the UK is built on. France is a bit less at ~4%; Germany a tiny bit higher at ~6%. Japan is close to 8% and the Netherlands is more like 14%. Be bold, double provision. Think of the jerbs it'd provide.

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

1 minute ago, Nick Thomas said:

Think of the jerbs it'd provide.

And jobs 🤣

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, Nick Thomas said:

Something like 5% of the UK is built on. France is a bit less at ~4%; Germany a tiny bit higher at ~6%. Japan is close to 8% and the Netherlands is more like 14%. Be bold, double provision. Think of the jerbs it'd provide.

 

When I go there, it feels much more spacious than the UK.

 

Trick of the light?

[Nick Thomas]

Sane urban planning, one imagines.

[joe90]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Trick of the light?

Perhaps when you holiday in France you visit pretty rural locations like we have here, Peak District, Lake District etc but at home we work in (for example) London, Birmingham or Manchester 🤷‍♂️

[kandgmitchell]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

One of the things that kept getting mentioned when suggesting where all these new homes are going to be built was "Car parks"  Okay so where will the cars that used to use these car parks, go and park then?

Cars? By the time the planners have approved the schemes the powers that be will have us all cycling around our "15 minute" cities wearing hand knitted jumpers made on our own hand looms using wool from the sheep grazing on all the green spaces promised and shown on artist's impressions of all new developments. Cars will be for authorised users only on production of the appropriate permit. Oh hang on got confused....that last bit was soviet russia not green policy. Sorry.

[billt]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

I would not live above a public car park, even if it had sprinklers, unless EV's were banned from entering.

 

Why EVs?

 

The Luton fire was apparently started in a diesel powered vehicle. The data shows EVs to be less likely to suffer fires than ICE vehicles, (0.001% chance of a fire insurance claim for EVs, 0.011% for diesel vehicles - from https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1168956/covered-car-parks-fire-safety-guidance-for-electric-vehicles.pdf p22, although there are a few caveats about that data.

 

The energy released in a car fire is about the same for EVs as ICE vehicles. It's interesting that the regulations for car park fire safety were set in 1968 and haven't been updated, although they're under review. The 1968 guidance was based on research which showed that, at the time, fire wouldn't spread between vehicles. Of course vehicles were much smaller then, made with less flammable materials and used metal fuel tanks. Apparently melting fuel tanks are responsible for a lot of the fire spread in car park fires.

 

(I wouldn't choose to live over a car park either!

[joth]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

Perhaps when you holiday in France you visit pretty rural locations like we have here, Peak District, Lake District etc but at home we work in (for example) London, Birmingham or Manchester 🤷‍♂️

This is true, but also I think the French  have a solid history of Revolutions that overturned anded gentry and make the commons available for the commons.

An astonishingly large amount of the UK is in private estates owned by the top 0.01% and only ever seen by the few folk that manage it.

 

[saveasteading]

22 minutes ago, billt said:

that, at the time, fire wouldn't spread between vehicles. 

I've got a certificate. On the Fire Engineering course 20+ years ago,it was clearly stated that serial explosions only happen in Hollywood. Mostly because fuel tanks, made of steel, don't catch fire. Plus open sides allow heat to vent and keep the temperature down.

Since then, fuel tanks have changed to plastic. If the rules haven't changed then that is not clever.

 

Another fundamental is that big open spaces are good design. Very heavy steel beams last longer, unprotected,  before failure. The Luton design appears to have lots of small sections for economy before convenience.

Neither do they appear to be boxed in. 

Why the floors collapsed is another issue. Not concrete, I'm guessing.

 

Twitter seemed to jump on it being an electric car. Rumours supported by big oil, behind the scenes?

 

[saveasteading]

35 minutes ago, joth said:

the French  have a solid history of Revolutions 

Equivalent English and British and UK murmurs have been jumped on by the establishment. They were very nervous during and after the French Revolution.

Beginning with the Levellers?

 

It's shocking how much of Scotland is owned by so few. The industrialist ownerships change hands occasionally. The aristocracy hold tight.

[RandAbuild]

Note how most NIMBYs are adequately housed. Trying to stop those who aren't.

Edited October 12, 2023 by RandAbuild
Typo

[ProDave]

6 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

When I go there, it feels much more spacious than the UK.

 

Trick of the light?

The UK seems to specialise in tiny houses crammed in far too close together in towns and cites then with hallowed "no build" (green belt) in between them.

 

I would prefer a more spaced out housing with larger gardens and spaces between which would of course use up a bit more land. 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, RandAbuild said:

Note how most NIMBYs are adequately housed. Trying to stop those who aren't.

 

That comment smacked me on the face like a wet  fish. Bang on.

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

more spaced out housing with larger gardens and spaces between

The developers build what makes money. Detached, perhaps by only 1m. Tiny gardens. Because it comes down  to land cost and these sell.

 

Councils have policies of avoiding suburban sprawl, preferring terraces and spaces. Developers and landowners are in charge though.

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Since then, fuel tanks have changed to plastic

Which survive impacts better, and don't corrode.

 

Diesel only needs a high temperature to ignite, whereas gasoline, generally, only evaporates rapidly when heated.

One of the major causes of vehicle fires, after an impact, was caused by brake fluid. This is now non flammable.

But I reality, most vehicle fires are caused by an electrical fault, similar to houses.

5 hours ago, billt said:

The energy released in a car fire is about the same for EVs as ICE vehicles

If only from the fuel.

An EV will have around 50 kWh of energy, a half filled tank of fuel will have maybe 60 kWh.

So similar.

The rate of burn is different though. Gasoline is faster than diesel (why gasoline engines can rev higher), not sure you can really compare a battery pack in the same way as they hold together.

[joe90]

But are they not reporting that EV fires are more difficult to put out?.

 

Although EV fires are rare, firefighters have found that they are very hard to put out once they start. This is because lithium-ion batteries burn hot and fast. They also require more effort to be extinguished because the batteries can reignite after the fire has been initially controlled.6 Jun 202

Edited October 12, 2023 by joe90

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

EV fires are more difficult to put out?.

I read that. But I'd think also quite easy to encase. Fires need oxygen 

23 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Which survive impacts better, and don't corrode.

So on balance good?  If only car parks (and tunnels and basements) allow for this. Sprinklers can act very locally and that is the enc of the small iniyial fire. I know a lot of car parks have sprinklers,  because they are designed by small people and I hit my head on them.

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I read that. But I'd think also quite easy to encase. Fires need oxygen 

Yes I read about the fire service inventing blankets to cover an EV on fire but it has to stay in place for days as batteries can re ignite again when oxygen is available.

[saveasteading]

58 minutes ago, joe90 said:

blankets to cover an EV on fire but it has to stay in place for

Can the manufacturer wrap them or have them enclosed tightly?

 

I did some prep work on a car park tender and got the impression that fire safety and stability was an optional extra....the steel was designed to minimise tonnage (good in principle) but the minimum for fire. That may now change.

Eg after each fire disaster I have had enquiries from clients' insurers  about completed buildings. Way back it was about eps underlay in warehouses (should never have been allowed), next was pu foam in cladding, then pir.

(Had arson against one our metal buildings once. It was a rated fire wall and performed really well. )

 

The science is all in place, and enough Engineers can apply it if engaged to,  but perhaps only the insurance industry can insist on it being applied.