F-gas certificate

[dpmiller]

think you need F-gas to buy bulk refrigerant now?

[joth]

On 04/10/2023 at 08:21, Beelbeebub said:

Our current antipathy to air to air seems to be born from a British distrust of air-conditioning rather than anything else. 

Possibly also the need for planning permission to install it? (itself rooted in that same distrust)

 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, joth said:

Possibly also the need for planning permission to install it? (itself rooted in that same distrust)

 

You strictly need planning permission for any product that can do cooling (the house not a fridge). As it's excluded from permitted development rights, irrespective of MCS or otherwise.

[joth]

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

You strictly need planning permission for any product that can do cooling (the house not a fridge). As it's excluded from permitted development rights, irrespective of MCS or otherwise.

Indeed, I mean the need for PP is possibly another reason why a2a  is unpopular here. 

[Beelbeebub]

5 hours ago, JohnMo said:

You strictly need planning permission for any product that can do cooling (the house not a fridge). As it's excluded from permitted development rights, irrespective of MCS or otherwise.

Maybe some a2a HPs with the cooling function disabled in would be a sales opportunity in the UK. 

 

I get the idea behind not encouraging cooling systems but with the way things are going it may be shortsighted 

 

Maybe if the a2a HPs carry an approval which is only given to models which either can't cool or can only cool down to (say) 28C. That way you can cool the house in an extreme heatwave but it's not going to be used for general cooling 

 

 

[Crofter]

5 hours ago, JohnMo said:

You strictly need planning permission for any product that can do cooling (the house not a fridge). As it's excluded from permitted development rights, irrespective of MCS or otherwise.

I did not know that!

In terms of aesthetics, there's not much difference in the external unit for A2A and A2W, is there? Both just a big white flat box with a fan in it.

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, Crofter said:

external unit for A2A and A2W

The rules don't care if it's an A2A or A2W, so either if used on cooling duty its not permitted development.  Not sure many would take much notice. Might be a noise thing?

[Crofter]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

The rules don't care if it's an A2A or A2W, so either if used on cooling duty its not permitted development.  Not sure many would take much notice. Might be a noise thing?

I expect it's to do with a presumption against air conditioning.

 

Planning is just as much about how a property is used and affects the surroundings, as it is about aesthetics.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

The rules don't care if it's an A2A or A2W, so either if used on cooling duty its not permitted development.  Not sure many would take much notice. Might be a noise thing?

 

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

8 hours ago, JohnMo said:

You strictly need planning permission for any product that can do cooling (the house not a fridge). As it's excluded from permitted development rights, irrespective of MCS or otherwise.

Maybe some a2a HPs with the cooling function disabled in would be a sales opportunity in the UK. 

 

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

 

 

The PD requirement is 'used for heating' not 'incapable of cooling' so the fact it's capable of cooling is, as far as I can see, irrelevant, so long as it's not USED for cooling.

 

However, to be pd, it must also be installed by an MCS contractor to MCS standards or equivalent standards.  Not sure if MCS standards permit A2A, would need to reread them (possibly more than once).  There are currently no recognised equivalent standards.

Edited October 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[joth]

21 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Not sure if MCS standards permit A2A, would need to reread them (possibly more than once).  There are currently no recognised equivalent standards

Funny could have sworn PD only required compliance to the noise management aspects of MCS020, but it now says PD requires compliance with the full standard (or equivalent) including use of MCS certified equipment and installer. 

So, good luck finding someone to issue an MCS cert on an a2a install. Even though I don't think the standard itself specifically excludes them, the MCS cartel essentially blackball anything that supports cooling out the box, and their training doesn't cover it. Hence why it's disabled by default in UK a2w units. 

Get PP, no need for MCS, no limits on cooling. It's amazing you don't see more planning applications going in for AC isn't it? 

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

amazing you don't see more planning applications going in for AC

A few on here read the rules and can quote most of them because they read and reread them, we are the exception, the normal population don't read them nor care to read them. So many things get done, which really should not. But that's life. 

[JamesPa]

11 minutes ago, joth said:

Funny could have sworn PD only required compliance to the noise management aspects of MCS020, but it now says PD requires compliance with the full standard (or equivalent) including use of MCS certified equipment and installer. 

That would have been good, morally defensible, and consistent with the purpose of planning law.  But MCS wrote themselves in by defining 'the mcs planning standards' to include things that have no place in planning law (which deals with the effect on others, not detailed installation standards) but conveniently create a closed shop.

 

11 minutes ago, joth said:

Get PP, no need for MCS, no limits on cooling. It's amazing you don't see more planning applications going in for AC isn't it? 

Not so easy.  My lpa demands impossible to meet noise requirements (their policy is that it must cause 'no harm to neighbouring properties' (nb not 'no material harm') so in practice unachievable in many cases  Furthermore they require a full noise assessment to bs 4142 which costs.  From a quick Web search my lpa is not alone!

 

+ what @johnmo says!

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[joth]

I think we'll soon be at the point so many heat pumps are installed without the required PP it will become broadly unenforceable to require it of anyone. 

[joth]

2 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Not so easy

Quite, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek 

[JamesPa]

6 minutes ago, joth said:

I think we'll soon be at the point so many heat pumps are installed without the required PP it will become broadly unenforceable to require it of anyone. 

If I could work out how to do a smiley face emoji with my tablet, that would be my response.  But I can't, so it's this instead.

Edited October 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[joth]

14 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

If I could work out how to do a smiley face emoji with my tablet, that would be my response.  But I can't, so it's this instead.

🙂

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, joth said:

Get PP, no need for MCS, no limits on cooling. It's amazing you don't see more planning applications going in for AC isn't it? 

 

There's no consistency to it. I don't think the issue is noise. You would think if there is a policy to discourage cooling on grounds of energy usage then it would be at national level. But my LPA have just granted permission for a 12kW Arotherm plus without any restrictions on cooling (or anything else). As sold by Vaillant in the UK they do not do it, however you can import a programming plug from Germany, reputedly for the best part of £200, but apparently the same resistor is sold as an accessory for their boilers at a more reasonable price. Or you can probably find one in the scrap bin for nothing if you know what you are doing.

[magnayn]

On 04/10/2023 at 12:38, Crofter said:

Fair point about whether f-gas is needed on most installations.

I'm probably being swayed by my own plans to install A2A. The more I've researched it, the more I like it. Seems a bit crazy that it's not more popular.

 

Go for it! I have a friend who did the cert - 4 day course and his comment was that it was .. umm... "not very complicated". (https://tony-muxlow-developments.co.uk/2079_trainingcourse.html FWIW - no connection, just that's who he used). 

I guess the only gamble is whether the industry converts to non-FGas units quickly.

 

I think A2A is _criminally_ underused. I was digging into flat rentals in our local area yesterday to check prices -- invariably where there was one that looked suspiciously cheap, I'd click through to find "direct electric heating", often with a relatively poor EPC, meaning "it's gonna cost you bignum to heat in the winter". Many of them looked like an ASHP could be fitted relatively easily.

[Crofter]

1 hour ago, magnayn said:

I guess the only gamble is whether the industry converts to non-FGas units quickly.

I heard that the non f-gas units had worse performance?

[PeterW]

On 05/10/2023 at 23:14, sharpener said:

As sold by Vaillant in the UK they do not do it, however you can import a programming plug from Germany, reputedly for the best part of £200

they are about €30 if you look - I think they are the same as the combi one but need to check as it’s bonkers if they are charging that much (probably to stop non-MCS installs)

[RobLe]

7 hours ago, Crofter said:

I heard that the non f-gas units had worse performance?

That’s not true - R290 (propane) is just about as good as you get for a refrigerant.  It was shunned for years because it’s flammable, not for performance reasons.  All else being equal, if you’re manufacturing or maintaining a heatpump, you’d prefer  a gas that isn’t explosive.  Unfortunately there’s no perfect gas - they all have downsides - ozone depletion/global warming/flammable/toxic/very high pressure needed.  Propane (HC in graph below), ammonia, CO2 were used 100 years ago, and are coming back after a while with CFCs :

 

[Beelbeebub]

The "only" problem with r290 is it's flammability.

 

In practical terms it's not a problem. The amounts are less than a camping gas cylinder. 

 

But from a regulatory POV it's unlikely fitting will be allowed without some sort of qualification. Whether that is an extension to the fgas certification or the gas safe certification is another question. 

[magnayn]

5 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

But from a regulatory POV it's unlikely fitting will be allowed without some sort of qualification. Whether that is an extension to the fgas certification or the gas safe certification is another question. 

 

Given I can wander into a calor gas store and buy propane as it has a wide variety of uses, an f-gas extension seems unlikely.

 

The govt could cover it as you say by "gas safe" on the installation part - but against a backdrop of still extremely low levels of heat pump uptake, I'm not convinced that would be in the national interest and would likely be seen polictically as a move benefiting only the natural gas boiler lobby (as indeed the F-gas reduction has been in the EU). Either way, it would seem overkill in a non-combustion scenario; it'd be nice to know a contractor knows how to braze pipes together, but I don't think that needs the skillset tested for by gas safe.

And of course, I can buy and install such units today, so it'd represent a change to the status quo.

 

 

[JamesPa]

40 minutes ago, magnayn said:

I'm not convinced that would be in the national interest and would likely be seen polictically as a move benefiting only the natural gas boiler lobby

So its more or less bound to happen then!

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, magnayn said:

 

Given I can wander into a calor gas store and buy propane as it has a wide variety of uses, an f-gas extension seems unlikely.

 

The govt could cover it as you say by "gas safe" on the installation part - but against a backdrop of still extremely low levels of heat pump uptake, I'm not convinced that would be in the national interest and would likely be seen polictically as a move benefiting only the natural gas boiler lobby (as indeed the F-gas reduction has been in the EU). Either way, it would seem overkill in a non-combustion scenario; it'd be nice to know a contractor knows how to braze pipes together, but I don't think that needs the skillset tested for by gas safe.

And of course, I can buy and install such units today, so it'd represent a change to the status quo.

 

 

I dunno, if someone F'd up the installation they could release the propane into the house which might cause a boom. I can def see some risks of allowing Billy-no-clue to grab one at B&Q and install it willy nilly. 

 

Wet systems can be worked on by amatures and you don't have to loom far to see the consequences of poor practice. Both in poor performance and also in property damage when a fitting leaks water. 

 

The consequences of bodging a r290 filled system are potentially alot higher than a wet system. Other than a tragic case a decade or more ago involving a plastic cold water tank, a stuck immersion heater and a baby I'm not aware of any fatalities or even serious injuries from bodged wet systems. 

 

All that said, I don't think it would take much training and good practice to make a person safe to install and maintain a system. Especially if brazing were avoided in favour of mechanical fittings. 

 

I think some systems use "push fit" connections on remade and prefilled line sets, which might offer a good middle way.