Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[ProDave]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But Rick.. the difference here between your house & mine (& it's massive/ it's so absolutely fundamental/ the crux of all this issue here)..

 

.. is you (& all those members you collectively listed earlier in the post) have decent insulation. It goes without saying, that with your knowledge, this priority structural factor, you WILL have up to par. Likely beyond-par up to a very decent standard.

 

I

 

do

 

not

 

have

 

insulation.

 

Practically.. none.

 

This is the cause of the cold. This is why so much cold enters. This is why a HP which typically produces medium-warm rads, cannot hold a candle to making any inroads, here.

 

The only way I can affect the insulative factor of my kitchen & bathroom (in their terrible construction 80's extension I sit here with nose & feet freezing cold as I type this, with it 14*C & mild outside..) is to knock it down. Rebuild it. Not by running each of these two room's small rad on for countless & pointless wasting hours. 
 

I cannot afford to rebuilt this extension. If I could, my main sittingroom is still in need of effectively the same treatment. I can't knock that down. I can affect a tiny perimeter cold ingress, but that's merely a sticking plaster solution. 
 

it's just a cold house, it will always be so. Unless 2 jet engines are introduced. Still I'd pee & huff my breath one side, even with the afterburner singing my arse the other.

 

thanks, Zoot

 

 

I really think you do not want to be helped and do not think it is possible to be helped.  You are set into the mindset of your house is too cold and to rubbish to be heated in any way and won't listen to or try any suggestions.  If that really is your mindset then I hope you are happy in your cheap to run but freezing cold house and I don't see how any of us can help you any more?

 

If you have not given up reading this, I can definitely say I know plenty of people in these old stone houses living in warmth and comfort (but obviously not ultra low bills)

 

We are suggesting ways to help and things to try and to try but rather than try them, you just tell us why they won't work and they are ridiculous suggestions.

 

Some people can't be helped.  My sister in law lives in a 1960's house with her heating on twice a day for 1 hour at a time with the radiators scalding hot, the rest of the time the house cools down and she often snuggles up in bed in the day to keep warm.  She just won't listen when you suggest not having the radiators anything like as hot, but on for much more of the day.  She just says it will cost too much without even trying it.  Some people you just can't help.  Sorry.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I

 

do

 

not

 

have

 

insulation.

 

Practically.. none.

 

Neither do I.

 

But I have a comfortable house all winter, because I run the heating on the lowest setting I can tolerate all winter, and yes, I get a bill from the gas company for the pleasure, which I accept needs paying.

[Nickfromwales]

This is only for 4-5 months of the year, and it's a heatpump so will be giving you some better COP than my gas boiler does, plus you can run on cheap rate overnight to offset the cost of heating from zero during peak times.

 

Setback seems to be the best option, at 15 degrees not 10 as that will be useless, and then maybe try 18 degrees comfort temp during the day (when not in setback) as a starting point.

[marshian]

Don't drag me into this madness @-rick-  

 

To the OP

 

My heating goes on in Sept and it get turned off in May once it is on it's on 24/7 - no setbacks at night - no comfort setting in the day time or any time - it's just on on permanently on - never turned off it's just ON ON

 

Why? because as soon as the outside air temp drops below an average of 16.5 deg C this house needs a heat input (it might not need a lot at the start but it needs some so it gets some) - if I let it cool down in the winter it can take several days to get back to temperature and I'll pretty much consume the same amount of energy as if I'd left the heating on all the time so I don't because it's pointless.

 

You are trying to heat a house with short bursts of heat from a heating system that is better suited to long low and slow - sorry but that's frankly madness.................

 

I'm out.

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, marshian said:

I'm out.

We're in the Crystal Maze mate, there's no way out once you're in  

[Dillsue]

56 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I honestly think we're at an impasse here, whereby I say the cause of the cold is fundamentally due to the uninsulated nature of the rooms, & you say the cause is the heating system isn't introducing enough heat. I'm absolutely adamant, & you guys are. But look, I live here, the doctor analogy is applicable/ you know your own body best analogy.

It's not the uninsulated nature of the rooms that's the problem, it's the way it's being heated. By that I mean the way you are trying to heat it and/or the way the system has been designed, installed and set up. That's not a snipe at you.

 

You've said the bathroom is heated with a towel rail which typically have a very low heat output so they'll only work in a well insulated bathroom or where the bathroom is surrounded by other warm rooms. If you post the dimensions of the bathroom walls, door, window, ceiling height and how each wall is constructed I'll estimate the heat loss and compare that to the likely heat output from your towel rail.

Edited 5 hours ago by Dillsue

[marshian]

13 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

We're in the Crystal Maze mate, there's no way out once you're in  

 

Unbookmarks topic

[sharpener]

29 minutes ago, marshian said:

My heating goes on in Sept and it get turned off in May once it is on it's on 24/7 - no setbacks at night - no comfort setting in the day time or any time - it's just on on permanently on - never turned off it's just ON ON

 

Having newly returned to this thread it strikes me there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is meant by ON.

 

Perhaps the term should be replaced by the word ENABLED.

 

In other words the HP is capable of giving heat bc the outside air temp is lower than the high limit, the time is within the scheduled operating times etc.

 

Whether it actually does so is then a function of the measured temperature(s). If control is via a simple thermostat in a sensible place then the HP will provide heated water to the radiators whenever the temp at the thermostat position falls below the set point.

 

Whether the radiators in turn make use of said heated water depends on their TRVs (if fitted). Consequently it is possible for the HP to be running but no heat being supplied to the bedroom. We run ours like this using the pre-existing electronic timer-TRVs bc we want the air in the bedroom to be heated before we go to bed and before we get up but not at other times - the stone walls stay cold, as they did with the oil-fired boiler. I would guess this solution might suit the OP quite well.

 

If there is a more sophisticated overall strategy e.g. Weather Compensation (I don't know if the OP has this) then the temp of the heated water that the HP supplies will depend on the outside air temp (and maybe the internal temp, maybe not).

 

Weather comp will almost certainly require the HP to be ON in the sense of ENABLED 24/7 though many users apply a setback of 1 or 2 deg at night. More than this makes recovery to the daytime temp setting both slow and costly. 

 

In practice we do not do this, the living room is a large space but is only occupied about 6 hours a day in the afternoon and evening so this too has rads controlled by the legacy electronic timer-TRVs. This is quite effective and although at odds with conventional thinking again might be more in line with the OP's philosophy. Provided you are prepared to spend £10/day in cold weather. In a big cold stone house that is what it costs whatever approach you adopt.

[marshian]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

 

Having newly returned to this thread it strikes me there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is meant by ON.

 

Perhaps the term should be replaced by the word ENABLED.

 

I can go along with that 

 

I didn't want to go down the route of explaining what ON means for my house but since you've pulled me up on the word ON

 

Outside temp sensor tells the boiler how cold it is - based on this temp the weather compensation curve sets the flow temp

 

At outside temps below minus 2.5 the boiler pretty much consumes energy all the time at a rate of 4 kWh (so peak consumption when it's that temp outside in a day is 96 kWh (plus a 4 to 5 kWh for HW) This means my peak cost is £5 a day (100 * £0.05)

 

When it's not bloody cold the boiler cycles - puts in some heat "on a burn" - circuit cools down "on a coast"

 

Depending on the outside temp the burn can be as little as 20 mins or as much as 60 mins and the coast can be as little as 10 mins or as long as 3 hours - All I am trying to do is replace the heat lost and that heat lost is directly related to the difference between warm inside house and colder outside house - I'm not trying to heat the house....... It is a comfortable temp all the time because the boiler is putting back what the house is losing

 

PS

 

I have no TRV intervention - they are there as absolute room temp limiters in the event of solar gain

 

Each rad is sized to the room heat loss

 

No UFH (all rads)

 

Flow temps range from 25 deg to 33 deg C - no rad ever feels warm!!!

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, marshian said:

 

I can go along with that 

 

I didn't want to go down the route of explaining what ON means for my house but since you've pulled me up on the word ON

 

Outside temp sensor tells the boiler how cold it is - based on this temp the weather compensation curve sets the flow temp

 

At outside temps below minus 2.5 the boiler pretty consumes energy all the time at a rate of 4 kWh (so peak consumption when it's that temp outside in a day is 96 kWh (plus a 4 to 5 kWh for HW) This means my peak cost is £5 a day (100 * £0.05)

 

When it's not bloody cold the boiler cycles - puts in some heat "on a burn" - circuit cools down "on a coast"

 

Depending on the outside temp the burn can be as little as 20 mins or as much as 60 mins and the coast can be as little as 10 mins or as long as 3 hours - All I am trying to do is replace the heat lost and that heat lost is directly related to the difference between warm inside house and colder outside house - I'm not trying to heat the house....... It is a comfortable temp all the time because the boiler is putting back what the house is losing

 

PS

 

I have no TRV intervention - they are there as absolute room temp limiters in the event of solar gain

 

Each rad is sized to the room heat loss

 

No UFH (all rads)

 

Flow temps range from 25 deg to 33 deg C - no rad ever feels warm!!!

 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

We're in the Crystal Maze mate, there's no way out once you're in  

 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

We're in the Crystal Maze mate, there's no way out once you're in  

You can't escape the Zootmaze.

 

 

[zoothorn]

Thing is chaps, with all respect (& I will talk to the engineer Monday with all that's discussed) once the U readings were done -if that's the calculation/ I think you know what I mean anyway- as I said the Co wanted to pull out. No way they wanted to put a HP in the cottage.

 

To reitterate, I had to beg them to relent & agree, but only because I was effectively getting a new cylinder out of it. I had no intention of CH useage. They did relent, but stipulating basically "but it won't work, in your house there, the calculations show".

 

So all I'm doing here, is reitterating what this set of people (whoever did the U calculations I mean- I can't recall who but it wasn't the installer, nor was it the innitial door to door salesman from the council super eager to put a HP in my property) what the calculations people, said about the maych of a 9kW HP + my property. That it won't work.

 

All I'm doing, is showing you, that they were right. I'm not arguing for argument's sake, nor being obdurate & not running the HP for long stretches over months: this -was the setting- of the prior (noisy, yes) HP. The fact that the cottage remained freezing cold, only tallied with what the calculations people said. That it tallied too, with what I suspected, I think shows a bit of intuition from myslef tbh. 
 

I don't think you're giving me due credit here. And you're effectively arguing with the calculations people, rather than me per se, ghat a 9kW HP can work here. It can't. And I'll say it till the cows come home too.

 

We'll set the HP on Monday, to work as it did before. In longer continual day periods. Like the last one was set to. Why anyone thinks this time I'll have some warmth (in the 3 main cold rooms that I mostly use), tbh I find rather bizarre. 
 

Anyway, much appreciate the help. I'll do my best on Monday, & I'm better placed to ask the chap questions, than I was before. One being whether -I- can power it down, rewire the controller box via a new 30m cable from the interface unit box, through a wall, & down say to the kitchen (which we can agree on: this cold room I frquent the most being a far more convenient place to have it to monitor it/ fiddle about with it's settings etc)... I'll certainly ask. Another logical question, being why was it placed next to the cylinder; if perhaps convenience to the installer's workload, might be the obvious answer.

 

Thanks Zoot

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot. Serious question if you don't mind. Could you afford to pay £250 a month for your electricty ? That would be a total of £3000 over a year. It's a real question, not just us trying to have a nose at your financial status.

If i came down to you, and provided you with a system where, you could boil a kettle, cook food, be cool in bed, and toasty warm during the day, regardless of how cold it would be outside. Is that a cost that you would be ok with ?

[Nickfromwales]

44 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Thing is chaps, with all respect (& I will talk to the engineer Monday with all that's discussed) once the U readings were done -if that's the calculation/ I think you know what I mean anyway- as I said the Co wanted to pull out. No way they wanted to put a HP in the cottage.

 

To reitterate, I had to beg them to relent & agree, but only because I was effectively getting a new cylinder out of it. I had no intention of CH useage. They did relent, but stipulating basically "but it won't work, in your house there, the calculations show".

 

So all I'm doing here, is reitterating what this set of people (whoever did the U calculations I mean- I can't recall who but it wasn't the installer, nor was it the innitial door to door salesman from the council super eager to put a HP in my property) what the calculations people, said about the maych of a 9kW HP + my property. That it won't work.

 

All I'm doing, is showing you, that they were right. I'm not arguing for argument's sake, nor being obdurate & not running the HP for long stretches over months: this -was the setting- of the prior (noisy, yes) HP. The fact that the cottage remained freezing cold, only tallied with what the calculations people said. That it tallied too, with what I suspected, I think shows a bit of intuition from myslef tbh. 
 

I don't think you're giving me due credit here. And you're effectively arguing with the calculations people, rather than me per se, ghat a 9kW HP can work here. It can't. And I'll say it till the cows come home too.

 

We'll set the HP on Monday, to work as it did before. In longer continual day periods. Like the last one was set to. Why anyone thinks this time I'll have some warmth (in the 3 main cold rooms that I mostly use), tbh I find rather bizarre. 
 

Anyway, much appreciate the help. I'll do my best on Monday, & I'm better placed to ask the chap questions, than I was before. One being whether -I- can power it down, rewire the controller box via a new 30m cable from the interface unit box, through a wall, & down say to the kitchen (which we can agree on: this cold room I frquent the most being a far more convenient place to have it to monitor it/ fiddle about with it's settings etc)... I'll certainly ask. Another logical question, being why was it placed next to the cylinder; if perhaps convenience to the installer's workload, might be the obvious answer.

 

Thanks Zoot

Why not go and buy a wireless room stat, from Screwfix or Toolstation, and ask them to fit it whilst they are there, then you can leave the other one where it is and zero cables to run. If he says no, just take it back and refund it. 

[zoothorn]

27 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Zoot. Serious question if you don't mind. Could you afford to pay £250 a month for your electricty ? That would be a total of £3000 over a year. It's a real question, not just us trying to have a nose at your financial status.

If i came down to you, and provided you with a system where, you could boil a kettle, cook food, be cool in bed, and toasty warm during the day, regardless of how cold it would be outside. Is that a cost that you would be ok with ?

Absolutely not. I had no idea such a figure would be relevant to me here, having been paying £70.

 

Again: the prior HP was being run, to all intents & purposes, continually (bar night- I'll never entertain the idea of rads on overnight never in my life have I lived in a property with overnight rads on, it's sheer lunacy).
 

I was paying £70 then. So why anyone would ask 'would you be prepared to spend 2.5x as much per month?' Tbh I'm fairly baffled by. I mean of course I wouldn't.

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Why not go and buy a wireless room stat, from Screwfix or Toolstation, and ask them to fit it whilst they are there, then you can leave the other one where it is and zero cables to run. If he says no, just take it back and refund it. 

I don't understand Nick apologies. How could such a screwfix thermostat trip the system on & off-? 

[Big Jimbo]

Gents, i hate to say this, but, There is no way on earth, that Zoot is going to get the above for much less than i quoted above.

We have to understand that a large proportion of Old people, only on a state pension, have to chose, between heat and eat.

Expecting to cover the cost of the above for £70 per month is living in cloud cookoo land.

I now live in my posh shed, as my bungalow will be pulled down in the near future. It's about 250 square foot. I have a kettle, a microwave, and air fryer, and a two ring electric hob. I have a 10k/w instant water heater which is a bit crap, but that provides water for a shower, and the sink. The walls, floor, and roof, all have 100mm of pir. Well fitted. Double glazing, and although not tested would be quite good for airtightness. (i built it) I have One, in wall heat recovery ventaxia fan, and an extraction fan in the shower room which comes on with the light. The heating is taken care of by a very small panel heater in the bathroom set to 18, and a larger one in the main room set to 18 at night, and 21 during the day. The heaters are on 24/7 switching themselves, on an off as required.

I spend On average £68 per month on electricity to run the gaff. Frankly, it's a lot nicer that my crappy bungalow.

 

Unless the Zoot, is in the position, and if he is, wants to.............. Unless he he willing to spend considerably more money on a monthly basis, he is not going to be able to move forward.

 

I said to all my 3 girls. It's great having the big house, with the great kitchen, and the almost new car on the drive. All your friends will be jealous..... However, it will be shit, to have that, but have to shop in the dented tins isle, and not to be able to afford the petrol for the car.

 

Zoot is going to either have to spend a lot of extra money to live comfortably

Put up with very cheap bills, but being bloody freezing most of the time.

consider moving, to perhaps a smaller, cheaper, better built property. Where he can be warm at a reasonable cost.

 

Zoots house might be utter shite. We don't know because we have not been there. There is a possibility that the engineer did some heat loss calcs, and basically thought, It's effing pointless trying to heat this place. I will set this up, so he can at least get some hot water.

 

Now, we all know that it can be heated. However if it really is as shite as Zoot says, that might cost £1000 a month.

We can all offer advice, but i think there needs to be a commitment to spend more than £70 per month on energy when you live in a shite, old, welsh cottage, that is surrounded by it's own doom and gloom micro climate system .

[Nickfromwales]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I don't understand Nick apologies. How could such a screwfix thermostat trip the system on & off-? 

It would be your room (house) thermostat, the thing you are referring to moving with 30m of cable. 

 

You can add a wireless one and leave the factory one in situ as just a dumb display / end user interface. Should be a 30 mins install max.

 

This you can take with you room to room, so if you want to be comfortable at night, take it to the bedroom and plonk it near an internal wall away from any doors or windows.

 

If you spend your day in the sitting room, plonk it in there all day. It's moveable as its wireless and battery powered.

 

This is my one. 

 

[zoothorn]

@Big Jimbo

 

so how is it that I was spending £70 pcm, & had the rads on in the continual setting you all now want me to set the new one like?

 

I'm not lying, that was my bill. And I had the HP set to continual, albeit not the 23*C you can afford, set to 18*C. I certainly didn't have the rads on overnight, no, I think that idea is ridiculous. 
 

Why is it that no-one agrees with the calculations people, who said "no way our HP can run your cottage"?

 

I just don't get it. They were right. I knew it couldn't. I never intended it to work here. In the 2 newbuild rooms? YES it can work there. But not in the old 3 main rooms.

 

There is such a clear example, right under my nose, of what rooms can be heated by it & what type just can't. New build rooms yes: I can see the evidence 6m away from where I stand. Old stone room & crap 80's extension rooms no: he question is why. And the answer is so damn obvious too, right here, evidence right now, at my property. Warm room. And a cold room. 
 

The difference is the answer. And the only difference... is insulation. That is the reason one room is warm, one is cold.

 

I mean this is so damn obvious! I can't honestly believe why anyone could disagree! It's like when Blair stated 'education education education'. The difference between th3 rooms, & therefore the 2+2=4 answer IS IS IS 'insulation insulation insulation!!'

[Big Jimbo]

The Answer Zoot, is that you live in a house where it is not possible, to expect to spend £70 per month, and live comfortably.

That's the answer.

[-rick-]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

so how is it that I was spending £70 pcm, & had the rads on in the continual setting you all now want me to set the new one like?

 

As you said yourself the rads were coming on and off. They weren't on continuously.

 

We have talked about how the thermostat is in the wrong place. The system may have been set to run, but the thermostat was stopping it running most of the time. Your bill would have been very much higher had it been actually producing heat constantly.

 

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Why is it that no-one agrees with the calculations people, who said "no way our HP can run your cottage"?

 

Both @Dillsue and I have done some rough calcs for your place. The results are that your heatpump is likely not able to maintain 20C internally during the coldest days of the year. No company would want to install something that can't maintain 20C during the coldest days. In fact I suspect that most companies would want to make sure the heatpump could maintain 23C.

 

That doesn't mean that the heatpump flat out wont work. Just that for 2-3weeks a year it will be colder than 20C inside. Given right now you are much colder than that I'm suggesting changes that could allow you to be warmer than you are now.

 

@Big Jimbo is right though, if you want to be warm in your house you will have to be able to afford bigger bills. How much bigger is unclear, but his estimate of £250 is a good starting point.

 

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

There is such a clear example, right under my nose, of what rooms can be heated by it & what type just can't. New build rooms yes: I can see the evidence 6m away from where I stand. Old stone room & crap 80's extension rooms no: he question is why. And the answer is so damn obvious too, right here, evidence right now, at my property. Warm room. And a cold room. 

 

Some things are not as obvious as they seem. Because the old rooms have very thick walls, once they are cold they are difficult to warm up. So if you really want to prove your theory you need to run the house for at least a week, probably more with the heating on and rads warm continuously. If after 2 weeks of doing that, it's still cold then you will have proved your point (at as the house is now). If it's warmer but not toasty then we can have a conversation about making it better.

 

Edit to add: if after two weeks of constant heating it's still deathly cold then its still not game over, just that improvements need to be made to the place and I'm not talking insulation. It's more likely plasterboard tent type issues or drafts (despite your best efforts).

Edited 1 hour ago by -rick-

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot, you are very good at avoidence.

You either spend a considerable sum of money to improve the "U" values of all the elements of your house. Walls, floors, roof, windows, doors. Everything.

You commit to spend a considerable amount of money to provide your crappy house with enough energy to keep it, and you happy.

You put with it being damp, and cold.

You sell it to some mug, and buy somewhere better.

 

Which of those do you want to do fella ?

There are no other options i'm afraid.

 

Now, stop waffling, and avoiding. Which of those do you want to do ?

[Nickfromwales]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Why is it that no-one agrees with the calculations people, who said "no way our HP can run your cottage"?

 

I just don't get it. They were right. I knew it couldn't. I never intended it to work here. In the 2 newbuild rooms? YES it can work there. But not in the old 3 main rooms

Because your salespeople and installers just wanted the path of least resistance and an easy sale.

 

Your original split system would have been capable of chucking out way above 65°C maybe even higher.

 

The monoblock, even a shit one, will be able to do 60°C, so if you put that on and set the room stat to 19.5° like mine, (nobody’s mentioned you being 23°!!!!!), and you have 12 radiators, then…..

 

Your house will heat up. 
 

As does mine, which is also a sack of shit in wales with stone walls and feck all insulation.

 

It will work, so please stop saying it won’t happen as it absolutely will. It’s the laws of physics which “ye cannae change, Jim”.

 

12 rads at 50°C flow temp will get your house warmed up just fine. Try it. 

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot, we do all love you fella, and sooooooo many people on here want to help. If you pick One of the options above. Then we will all know where we stand.

 

Once you have chosen one, we can all chip in and help you buddy. There are a lot of people who are offering you help. Great guys and girls on this site. The best there is

 

There are no other options, so you can't come back with.....How can i leave my house as it is. Spend £70 a month on energy, and be warm and toasty. Even the fella on here from Wales, who calls himself the Wizard, ain't got a magic wand that can do that.