Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[-rick-]

3 hours ago, Dillsue said:

I did a quick heat loss calc on a ground floor stone building 12m x 6m x 2.5m without any insulation and rooms above which gives a 5kw heat loss @-2. If the rooms above are of a similar size and insulation level then a 9kw heat pump is going to heat the place. That's physics. If you know someone you trust who has studied physics then speak to them and see if they can explain it to you in a way that works for you.

 

That's pretty much what I came to as well. Glad to see it verified.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

If you are only paying £70 per month for electricity then there is no way you can be putting enough energy into that house.

 

At this time of year I am paying that much for heating a very well insulated and air tight house.  If I put that level of heating into an old cold stone building it would be cold.

 

The only way you are going to solve this impass, is to turn your heating on 24/7 for at least a week to try it.  Once you have been shown how to do this, please give it a try.  For the first week or 2 the bills WILL be high as it will be heating the mass of the building and drying it.  Bills will go down once the building has warmed up and dried out as you will then only be replacing lost heat.

 

Until you get over your conviction that it is not going to work and actually try it, you will never know.

Hi ProDave,

 

as Ive said I just kinda left both systems for the installer to set, last thing.

On Monday, I can certainly ask the engineer (come to fix HW issue) to set it a certain way. But I have no idea what to ask.

 

When you say 'leave it on 24/7' I'm not quite understanding what you mean: you see I know that my system is working 24/7, what I mean is it's connected up to receive power, but obviously doesn't produce rad heat overnight. But it's still 'on' nevertheless.

 

So this word "on" is hugely ambiguous. Are you suggesting I leave all the rads to be warm for 24/7 ? Surely not as I wouldn't be able to sleep, it seems massively wasteful, environmentally ridiculous, when just 1 person living here.

 

So you might be suggesting some kind of setting -between- these two situations. If so, isn't that what I had it set ti before with my prior system with the rads dipping on-off all day?? I've tried that. The try failed. The cottage remained freezing.

 

I'm also not understanding the thermostat suggestion thing. The suggestion to place it somewhere other than where the installer put it. Why, would the installer put it anywhere other than a sensible place? How can I override his decision, & ask him to place it some other room, when I can't even understand the system? 
 

Afaik, the thermostat needs to be close to the cylinder. Close to the other interface box too, which itself has to be close to the cylinder. Cylinders are typucally found in spae bedroom cupboards. I know this to be true, as Ive seen them with my own eyes, in almost all the houses Ive ever set foot in. An orange foam covered tank, warm, usually in a tiny cupboard often called 'airing cubboard' residing within an upstairs bedroom. Usually the smallest, least used bedroom. When I call up saying 'another fault' the Vaillant fix team person asks me to look at the screen on the interface, then go to the controller (I think this smallest box is also referred to as the thermostat). So I have to dart between them. I can't do that, if the thermostat, has been rewired (a huge length of cable running 15m away from where it is) to be in one of my cold rooms downstairs. 
 

Thanks Zoot

 

 

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So this word "on" is hugely ambiguous. Are you suggesting I leave all the rads to be warm for 24/7 ? Surely not as I wouldn't be able to sleep, it seems massively wasteful, environmentally ridiculous, when just 1 person living here.

Yes, I mean ON as in running and radiators hot ALL DAY AND NIGHT until the house reaches the temperature set by the thermostat.

 

You need to get the installer to show you how to change the settings between off, on, controlled by a timer and on all the time.

 

Only when you actually try it on all the time, will you really know if the house is capable of being heated by the heat pump.  Try it for a week.  It might annoy you with some noise at night, it might cost you more, but that is the only way to know if it is actually capable of heating your house and if so how much it might cost to do so (remember costs will go down after the initial heat up and dry out period)

 

Get the installer to show you how to change the settings, take notes so you remember, and if you don't understand ask him to explain it again.

 

As an aside, one thing I dislike about heat pumps is to the average user, they are so different to a gas boiler.  Almost everyone is familiar with a normal central heating programmer on the wall from where you can set on off times or easily turn it on all the time.  But every heat pump I have seen the timer functions are way more complicated but more important are nothing like operating the sort of programmer that everyone is used to.

 

When I installed mine, I made it a non standard install by ignoring all the timer functions built into the controller that came with the heat pump, and instead connected a standard central heating programmer so anyone could understand how to change it from on all the time to on a timer etc.

[zoothorn]

@S2D2 Your £700 figure has polaxed me. I've no comprehension why you'd pick such a figure (unless you live in a castle?!).

 

I know I pay £70 odd, each month. Now this is likely not an actual figure of useage in winter, because it's compromise/ average/ I forget the word, figure. 
 

When I call up Octopus to ask why my 'balance is £300 in credit' & what this means, I ask them to please speak very slowly, to explain, to please use simple analogies, to help me understand, what on god's name this figure means. Just this.

 

They do so, but I cannot understand a word they say; I have to politely say thanks but I still haven't a clue what this figure even is at the end of the call. It's economics. My brain doesn't compute economics.  So much so, that the very fundamental lesson 1/ page 1 example of  'supply & demand'... is 100% counterintuitive, to my brain. I do not understand economics. It seems you need to have a basic grasp of it, in order to pick the bones out of these super-complicated (to me) electricity bills. So I don't. I set up a direct debit, & £70 is taken each month. I often put in a meter reading, but still, it takes £70 each month (IE it seems my putting in meter reading, makes zero effect, on what is taken each month.. so I never know why on god's earth am I even being asked, to put in meter numbers at all?? A rhetorical question).

 

I just pay £70. And enough already. Whether that is a correct figure, or wildly incorrect, I have no clue whatsoever. I dare not ask, or rather there's zero point me asking an Octopus person, because I won't understand a word of their reply. 
 

Thanks Zoot
 

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by zoothorn

[ProDave]

Most people use more energy in winter because they are heating their house,  and less in summer when they are not.  Your electricity meter gives  reading all the time of how much it has used.

 

Most suppliers, like Octopus prefer you to pay the same amount each month.  So in the summer months you are paying for more than actual use so your balance with the company builds up.  In the winter you are probably using more than the £70 per month you are paying and your balance comes down.

 

If you still have an account balance of £300 at near the end of winter then you are paying more than you need to.  That makes your £70 per month even more astonishing.  I can't get my summer monthly usage that low, I would have to stop using the washing machine and dishwasher and watch a lot less television to achieve that.

 

So all it shows is just how little you are using on heating which is why your house is always cold.

 

Octopus will change your monthly payments to actual usage each month if you prefer rather than the same average all year round.  Or you can ask for surplus balance to be returned to you if you want to.  In that respect they are a lot better and easier to deal with than most other suppliers.

[zoothorn]

@-rick-

 

I can certainly give him your wording here, to the engineer, on Monday.. despite not understand some of what you're asking me to ask him

 

For eg. Always on?? Why would I want the heating always on?? (Why would anyone want their heating always on??) I don't want to wake up sweating, besides, you & I were on the same page grumbling about Storage heaters being on at 3:53 am when you absolutely least want them to.

 

So the very first thing, you're asking me to ask him here, I don't understand whatsoever as to why you'd want me to request this. From then on, I'm further confused.

 

But I can show him your reply, record his answer on my iPad's audio, & write down what he said. But then type it on here, for it to be "translated", by you guys. I mean I'm exhausted enough. But if that's the only way.

 

TRV's which iirc are independent thermostats.. plus separate thermostats.. & my head explodes. I cannot understand an iota of this principle. Apologies.

 

 

 

How to be ready:

1. Get the engineer on Monday to show you how to:

a. turn heating to

- "always on"

- "always off"

- "timer"

b. adjust the set temperature

c. adjust the timer

2. Deal with the bedroom external walls as discussed.

3. If needed, arrange for the thermostat/heatpump controller to be moved to a cold part of the house

4. Possibly, get TRVs installed on the radiators in the warm part of the house (this is something that couldbe done if needed at a later date).

 

 

[SteamyTea]

50 minutes ago, -rick- said:

parents to upgrade their storage heaters as it didn't make any difference

Why would it if they were the same energy storage and similar power delivery.

Workmate of mine did the same. Found out the problem is the way she used them i.e. turns the fan in when she gets home and leaves it on.

 

[-rick-]

45 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'm also not understanding the thermostat suggestion thing. The suggestion to place it somewhere other than where the installer put it. Why, would the installer put it anywhere other than a sensible place? How can I override his decision, & ask him to place it some other room, when I can't even understand the system?

 

I can't explain past decisions. What's important is to solve the problems now.

 

45 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Afaik, the thermostat needs to be close to the cylinder. Close to the other interface box too

 

Not at all. Traditional Gas systems usually have a controller (that might be near the cylinder) but a seperate thermostat somewhere central in the house.

 

Heat pumps often by default have the thermostat inside the control screen. This should be installed in a place that is exposed to the coldest indoor temperatures (so it doesn't switch the heating off until the coldest place is warm).

 

From what you've said your thermostat is near your cylinder, which explains your problem. The cylinder is mostly likely the hottest part of the house, so the thermostat is sitting there thinking it's 18C when you are sitting in the sitting room freezing.

 

So either you need an engineer to attach a remote thermostat to your existing system or to move the existing thermostat.

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I know I pay £70 odd, each month. Now this is likely not an actual figure of useage in winter, because it's compromise/ average/ I forget the word, figure. 
 

When I call up Octopus to ask why my 'balance is £300 in credit' & what this means, I ask them to please speak very slowly, to explain, to please use simple analogies, to help me understand, what on god's name this figure means. Just this.

Ok.

 

Simple to explain, as follows.

 

You are using less than £70 per calendar month on electricity / heating and hot water etc.

 

The bills are estimated at the moment, and they must have a way of knowing where you're at in terms of consumption because they are slowly racking up a credit (hence they are saying that you are currently £300 in credit; this means your over-paying at £70, and giving Octopus more money PCM than you are using.

 

Do you not have someone in the family who can speak to Octopus on your behalf to get some clarity?

 

You should be submitting a meter reading to Octopus, at least once a year, so they can adjust your charge rate and credit.

 

Do you have a smart meter?

 

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Your £700 figure has polaxed me. I've no comprehension why you'd pick such a figure (unless you live in a castle?!).

£700 PCM for energy consumption during winter is nothing to do with a castle-sized property. A "castle" would probably need £7000 PCM so please stop thinking that say £350 PCM in winter for a poorly insulated and draughty house is expensive, it is not.

 

I'm doing probably close to £15 a day in winter, stone walls, 2G doors and windows, and draughty as feck. Gas boiler with rads, and they do not turn off day or night (we sleep just fine because we don't over-heat the house, we just heat it so it's not cold or 'chilly') so for me atm close to £450-500 PCM depending on how much we use the tumble drier.

 

Summary:

 

You cannot possibly think you will be able to feel even marginally warm in your exact house if you do not run the heating for longer. You are being told (asked by frustrated, helpful people on here) to set the thermostat to a temp that is simply acceptable to you, and to leave the heating system on constantly (24/7 means 24 hours a day, 7 days a week) and allow the house to heat itself throughout and arrive at an ambient.

 

You are cold because you are not putting enough heat into the house, simple as, nothing to do with the heating system being effective you are just not using it for long enough each day.

 

My thermostat is set to a comfort temp during the day, but that's probably only 1.0 - 0.5 degrees C higher than the night time temp, so I am saying that I do not turn my heating off all winter.

 

If I turned the heating on and off (night to morning) and then on and off again Evening to night) every 24hrs like a timer as you're set up like at the moment then my house would be horribly cold and probably twice as expensive to heat.

 

If you don't want to freeze at night just set a low temp for the nights, and a slightly warmer temp for the days, then the heating system won't cook you, it'll regulate and just give you a minimum temp that you don't want to be colder than. Running the heating constantly doesn't mean it's constantly heating, it just means you wont get cold.

 

You need to look on YouTube for the controller for your heat pump and watch, listen and learn how to use it from there, as that will show you the short cuts to get your heating on as you need it. 

 

Currently the short heating programs are useless and that's why you are cold. It's also why your heating bills are so small, because you're not using any heating.

 

Once you learn how to control this thing, which will become easier the more you try, and learn by making mistakes, the problem will go away. You can then time the hot water to be hot when you want it to be hot.

[zoothorn]

Hi ProDave,

 

honestly thanks for trying to explain it, but if I can't understand "If you still have an account balance of £300 at near the end of winter then you are paying more than you need to".. I just can't do this. I've tried & tried for so long so many times with this stupid electric billing system. But I can never get it. Not even with childlike analogies. It just doesn't compute.

 

If my prior HP was (& afaict this is what you mean by 'always on' but I don't know) set to go on-off all day long, then afaict it was, in all normalcy, 'always on'. That is if you can't be suggesting in a 3-bed cottage just me living here, that I have all my 12 rads on continuously overnight: I just can't bring myself to believe that is what you are suggesting as it makes no logical sense.

 

So if my prior system was always on, for weeks on end set like so, during the winter & despite what my expense on electricity.. then the test is done, surely. The 'put your HP set to always on' test (which you're asking me to set the new HO to) has been done. It failed. The cottage remained freezing. Bar two newbuild rooms that is (sod's law being the least used rooms).

 

I'm in a perpetual cycle of non-understanding here. And the number of subjects I cannot understand, is increacing, with now mention if electric bills. I'll have to bail out, tbh, & with huge respect to all here, simply because I can't cope. I'm getting increacingly confused, leading to increasing kinda creeping mild stress.

 

Thanks, Zoot

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

3 minutes ago, -rick- said:

From what you've said your thermostat is near your cylinder, which explains your problem. The cylinder is mostly likely the hottest part of the house, so the thermostat is sitting there thinking it's 18C when you are sitting in the sitting room freezing.

 

So either you need an engineer to attach a remote thermostat to your existing system or to move the existing thermostat.

This is the problem with hit and run installers, just fitting the stat where they can easily get a wire to it.

 

They've also done a shit handover, and it's programmed to run completely ineffectively, as such a short heating window (unless @zoothorn told them it must be only on for a couple of hours to save money??).

[-rick-]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

For eg. Always on?? Why would I want the heating always on?? (Why would anyone want their heating always on??) I don't want to wake up sweating, besides, you & I were on the same page grumbling about Storage heaters being on at 3:53 am when you absolutely least want them to.

 

Yes always on, the radiators should be hot/warm until the house is warm. Once the house is warm then you would expect the system to automatically turn on and off to maintain that temperature.

 

You need to keep the system on to maintain a relatively steady temperature in your house. With thick walls like you have, once the heat is lost it takes an enormous amount of time and energy to heat up again so the key is to stop them getting cold in the first place.

 

I've suggested you get a TRV fitted to your bedroom radiator. This way you can set your bedroom temperature independently from the rest of the house and set it a couple of degrees lower. But the system will still be on, pushing heat into the rest of the property.

[Nickfromwales]

26 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I can certainly give him your wording here, to the engineer, on Monday.. despite not understand some of what you're asking me to ask him

 

Can't you ask a friend or family member to be in attendance to help you understand and decipher what is being said / how to use the controller?

 

Loom on YouTube as I have said, and see if that helps. May be good homework for you before the chap arrives Monday as you will then begin to learn by watching this repeatedly until some of it begins to make sense.

 

Pause the video, take screenshots, write notes.

[Nickfromwales]

3 minutes ago, -rick- said:

I've suggested you get a TRV fitted to your bedroom radiator. This way you can set your bedroom temperature independently from the rest of the house and set it a couple of degrees lower. But the system will still be on, pushing heat into the rest of the property.

Does it not already have a TRV on it? @zoothorn, do all the rads have TRVs on them?

[-rick-]

11 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Does it not already have a TRV on it? @zoothorn, do all the rads have TRVs on them?

 

On 16/02/2026 at 21:45, zoothorn said:

You mentioned before, about TRV's, as if you expected them to be on my rads. But I don't have any on my rads. When I had them on a property before, I found them infuriatingly impossible to understand. One minute the rad is on flatout, & I was too hot, then half an hour later the rad wasn't seemingly on (but it was within the block time the heaters were meant to be on) & the room was pretty cold again.

 

[Nickfromwales]

Thank @-rick-

 

This goes from a bad situation to a worse one then. WTF were these guys smoking when they thought this would self-regulate and not have any requirement for individual room temp control?!?

[zoothorn]

26 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Can't you ask a friend or family member to be in attendance to help you understand and decipher what is being said / how to use the controller?

 

Loom on YouTube as I have said, and see if that helps. May be good homework for you before the chap arrives Monday as you will then begin to learn by watching this repeatedly until some of it begins to make sense.

 

Pause the video, take screenshots, write notes.

Hi Nick,

 

alas I'm not blessed with family to help, 86/90 yr old frail parents, brother 200m away not close-brothers either. I don't even know anyone in wales to ask to tea, let alone ask to come & decipher some engineer's spiel!

 

I can spin the wheel on the controller though, know how to zip around it's menu (having to on phone to Vaillant, yet again, due to some minor fault). I'm even adept at it. 

But look I don't know what is being meant, by "set the heating to always on". I must try & establish what, exactly, is being asked here. Everyone seems to all know what is meant; but Ive repeatedly said that I do not, & no-one answers.

 

Thanks, Zoot

[zoothorn]

34 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Does it not already have a TRV on it? @zoothorn, do all the rads have TRVs on them?

No, none have. The installer asked this question too. I have no idea why this question would be asked, by you, or by him, if the room's rads are ultimately defined by the 'controller thermostat small box'.. therefore cannot for the life of me comprehend why any discussion of extra thermostats/ TRV's, makes any logical sense. Their mention merely adds further confusion for me.

[zoothorn]

45 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

Yes always on, the radiators should be hot/warm until the house is warm. Once the house is warm then you would expect the system to automatically turn on and off to maintain that temperature.

 

You need to keep the system on to maintain a relatively steady temperature in your house. With thick walls like you have, once the heat is lost it takes an enormous amount of time and energy to heat up again so the key is to stop them getting cold in the first place.

 

I've suggested you get a TRV fitted to your bedroom radiator. This way you can set your bedroom temperature independently from the rest of the house and set it a couple of degrees lower. But the system will still be on, pushing heat into the rest of the property.

So here Rick, you -are- unless I'm mistaken, saying all my rads, should be set to 'on', overnight. 
 

In my life I've never known any house, any heating system, anywhere, in any country Ive been to including cold NZ, to have the rads on overnight.

 

I cannot possibly believe this is what you or anyone is suggesting. I just can't sorry. Ive never heard anything suggested being so preposterous. 
 

All 12 rads, to be on, when I'm alone for 9 hours in one room.. when not only do I not even want heat (because I'm under a duvet), but also when I open a window to sleep, needing a bit of cold air/ how I prefer.. is such daftness I can't believe this is  being suggested.

 

How can I possibly run my house like this? I can't sorry, this is sheer madness to me. The wastage, the expenditure, just no way.

 

This may be how you like your bedroom overnight, maybe in a family of 4, with all your rads on, but never in my life have I ever heard of it before, by anyone, anywhere. You yourself agreed with the storage heater ridiculousness, of them belting out heat at 3:45am. You agreed. No-one could ----possibly, possibly----  disagree either. It's like having a car sat in the driveway idle, but left on & somehow using up MORE fuel, than you do when actually driving it. "Yes that's logical, keep it on running idle in the drive overnight, that's what they do". You'd commit that person to a mental asylum.
 

 

 

 

[-rick-]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

No, none have. The installer asked this question too. I have no idea why this question would be asked, by you, or by him, if the room's rads are ultimately defined by the 'controller thermostat small box'.. therefore cannot for the life of me comprehend why any discussion of extra thermostats/ TRV's, makes any logical sense. Their mention merely adds further confusion for me.

 

Maybe this helps:

 

The Thermostat/controller is there to put heat into the system whenever the coldest room needs heat (to do this it needs to be located in the coldest room)

 

The TRVs are there to set the hottest temperature you want the individual rooms to reach.

 

There are ways to make systems work without TRVs but your house is a long way away from that. So you need TRVs in rooms that would otherwise get too hot as the system is heating up the cold rooms. You don't really need TRVs in the cold rooms.

 

In my flat I have removed the TRVs from everywhere but the bedrooms and it works fine, but if I remove the TRVs from the bedrooms then the bedrooms overheat as the system is trying to warm up the cold other rooms. (My bedrooms have much better thermal properties - like your new bedroom in the old house)