Heat Pump Ready

[sharpener]

Some interesting projects under this Government scheme.

 

Also a subsided training scheme has been announced, some details here.

 

Apols if you knew this already, I didn't.

[ProDave]

Just one little snipped from that:

 

Quote

Clean Heat Streets aims to connect local communities to local installers whilst removing frictions and costs from the current heat pump installation process. The project will work with county and city councils and with finance providers to make sure that a wide range of people within the local community are able to benefit from a heat pump.

That about sums it up, admitting the existing system is broken, unworkable and expensive, and needs fixing.

 

While projects like this are good, it is no good just finding a way round the problem for a few streets who have received a grant to do so, the whole system needs to be fixed, so getting a heat pump fitted is as easy, and almost as cheap as getting a gas boiler fitted.

 

Until someone "at the top" grasps the problem, a proper solution for everyone will not happen.

[JohnMo]

The current grant system is just funding the rich, as to take up an MCS heat pump installation, you need to rich or daft or both.

 

Normal person just cannot justify (and why would they) a boiler for £10k+ after grant.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

The current grant system is just funding the rich  MCS, as to take up an MCS heat pump installation, you need to rich or daft or both.

 

Normal person just cannot justify (and why would they) a boiler for £10k+ after grant.

Corrected that for you (imho of course)

[JohnMo]

Mean that the grants are going to people that already have plenty of money and don't really need it. But you are also correct its all about self preservation of the MCS and finding its self.

[Beelbeebub]

45 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Until someone "at the top" grasps the problem, a proper solution for everyone will not happen.

😂🤣😂🤣😂😂....😭😭

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

someone "at the top"

Is there a single technical person 'at the top', or near it?

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

Is there a single technical person 'at the top', or near it?

No, but someone, some group of people,  sets the policies that "encourage" customers to use an MCS company in order to claim a £5K grant, and if those people cannot see that using an MCS company adds more than £5K to the bill compared to just using a plumber and an electrician to install it, then frankly we might as well give up trying.

 

Then add into that mix, you only get PD rights for a heat pump if you adhere to MCS rules.

 

Why do I feel this is the next brewing scandal?

 

 

[JohnMo]

It's a closed shop, no opening for entry by any third-party person or organisation.

 

Isn't that against the law?

[saveasteading]

It jut seems to me like the previous 'green deal' etc.

 

It is very easy for the government to set up yet another scheme, and throw money at the new quango. The people promoting the green deal were charming but not skilled, being on a serious of moves from one grant aided quango to the next.

I'm assuming this is much the same.     And where does the unskilled quango go for advice?  Easy, uncomplicated advice on how to run a scheme:  the closed shop that will gain.

 

then they come up with

1. use us and our people  or there is no grant

 

 

ahhh that's it. there is no rule 2.

 

 

[ProDave]

Can you imagine the uproar, if Gas Safe was run as a scheme that added at least £5K onto the cost of installing a gas boiler, compared to just paying the plumber?

 

Why is there not the uproar at the added MCS costs?

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Why is there not the uproar at the added MCS costs?

Because the masses believe they are really getting £5k of the install price. Possibly not he masses because uptake is so low 

[saveasteading]

Can someone here with the knowledge write  a short statement on why it is a  bad idea?

Then it could be sent to Which magazine to investigate. Also  I think the Guardian are always looking for social stories.

[sharpener]

21 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

It is very easy for the government to set up yet another scheme, and throw money at the new quango.

 

Made worse by the only real measure of success being the number of grants doled out not the reduction in carbon emissions.

 

Govt departments really really want to spend the cash once it has been allocated by the Treasury, because having them claw back unclaimed money is an admission of failure. Quality of outcomes ranks a very distant second.

 

But given the current handwringing about the poor uptake under the BUS I do have faint hopes they might make it easier to get at the money before the next election.

[SteamyTea]

Does any of it matter, I think this government is going to drop most of the 'green' policies.

There was someone on the radio yesterday, Gove, I think, pointing out that more people die from the cold than the the heat, so a bit of global warming will be good for the UK.

If we do have a really cold winter, we can always fill the empty seat on the Rwanda flights with pensioners.

[ProDave]

13 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Can someone here with the knowledge write  a short statement on why it is a  bad idea?

Then it could be sent to Which magazine to investigate. Also  I think the Guardian are always looking for social stories.

What is needed, is someone who has had a BUS / MCS heat pump install to come and tell us exactly what it cost, exactly how many man hours of workman time took place at their house, and exactly what heat pump and other equipment was installed.

 

Then we could pick it apart into a material cost, and a reasonable labour cost, and see what the "MCS premium" really was.

 

Without that all I can say is "me and my plumber mate could fit it a lot cheaper"

[Beelbeebub]

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

There was someone on the radio yesterday, Gove, I think, pointing out that more people die from the cold than the the heat, so a bit of global warming will be good for the UK.

Please tell me a government minster didn't say that! 

 

That line of thinking fundementally misunderstands the threats from rising global temperatures. 

 

It also happens to be a common argument from the "skeptic" community, which would indicate that lobby has the ear of that particular minster.

 

 

[JamesPa]

 

31 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does any of it matter, I think this government is going to drop most of the 'green' policies.

There was someone on the radio yesterday, Gove, I think, pointing out that more people die from the cold than the the heat, so a bit of global warming will be good for the UK.

If we do have a really cold winter, we can always fill the empty seat on the Rwanda flights with pensioners.

 

 

err - but one almost certain effect of global warming is that the Gulf Stream stops, possibly as early as 2025 (central estimate 2050).  See here.  This makes the UK colder not warmer (as well as all the other disastrous effects)!

 

These guys really out to lunch at our expense.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

45 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Can someone here with the knowledge write  a short statement on why it is a  bad idea?

Then it could be sent to Which magazine to investigate. Also  I think the Guardian are always looking for social stories.

Id love to and I've been thinking about how to.

 

The problem I keep coming up against is that, for the argument to come over as anything other than just another persons opinion, it needs a bit of engineering nouse on the part of the reader.  So 95%+ of the population (and probably 99% of the Government) wont understand it.  

 

Meanwhile MCS continue to position themselves as a consumer protection organisation whereas in reality the only people they protect is their installers.

 

Unfortunately its not as simple as MCS installers are more expensive and 'my mate the plumber could do it cheaper'.  Its as much, if not more, about all the overhead operations MCS adds, eg unnecessarily replacing perfectly good DHW cylinders, upgrading pipes unnecessarily and over-estimating the required system size.  They will just argue that this is 'necessary for consumer protection', which of course we know is nonsense, but Joe Public does not. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

Oh well, I guess its rather weak to complain without actually doing something.  I have just pitched the idea for an article as suggested above to the Guardian.  I will report back if I get a response!

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

Please tell me a government minster didn't say that! 

I just jumped though Today, from yesterday, was not Gove saying it, or Kevin McClot.

There was a lot of stuff on the radio about housing and climate yesterday, so I am sure it is in there somewhere.  I only picked up on it when they started talking about deaths from hypothermia, so missed part of the context.

[DougMLancs]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

What is needed, is someone who has had a BUS / MCS heat pump install to come and tell us exactly what it cost, exactly how many man hours of workman time took place at their house, and exactly what heat pump and other equipment was installed.

 

Then we could pick it apart into a material cost, and a reasonable labour cost, and see what the "MCS premium" really was.

 

Without that all I can say is "me and my plumber mate could fit it a lot cheaper"

If it helps the discussion my installation was £9500 after the bus grant. That was for a 9kW Panasonic Aquarea L ASHP (first one installed in the UK) with an indoor unit that incorporates the DHW tank (we were given the option of the indoor unit or a separate cylinder but it was being sited in the kitchen so we went for this option for the same price). We also have full system monitoring for consumption, heat generation and COP.

House background- average 1960’s 3 bed semi with CWI, DG and 300mm loft insulation. Result of Heat loss calc 7kW at -3C.

System setup- designed for a flow temperature of 35C though the 9 rads. Old rads were nearly all P+ which were upgraded to K2/K3. No buffer/LLH/glycol. 22mm primaries in the ceiling were retained as was the 10mm microbore to the rads. We were keen to go for long term efficiency even if it meant some extra rad upgrades. 

 

Labour hours-

Site survey and room-by-room heat loss calculation- 3 hours 

System design- 6 hours

Removal of 9x old radiators and old combi boiler- 12 hours 

Fitting new rads- 12 hours

Electrician installing a supply ready for HP- 5 hours

Siting and installing outdoor and indoor units 20 hours

Commissioning- 5 hours

DNO/MCS/BUS paperwork- who knows but more time than they’d like I’m sure 

Answering all my emails- probably 3 hours 😂

 

The installer and the designer were both highly critical of the current MCS system from their perspective too- a ridiculous amount of irrelevant box ticking that has no bearing on whether that installation is actually any good. I was listening to some of the engineers on the MCS working group though and it sounds like some aspects are changing for the better (the installer wasn’t MCS certified but they work with the designer who is and is the nominated person). The installer also does PV and MVHR but isn’t MCS for the PV as it’s not worth the hassle to him.

Edited July 26, 2023 by DougMLancs

[JamesPa]

35 minutes ago, DougMLancs said:

If it helps the discussion my installation was £9500 after the bus grant. That was for a 9kW Panasonic Aquarea L ASHP (first one installed in the UK) with an indoor unit that incorporates the DHW tank (we were given the option of the indoor unit or a separate cylinder but it was being sited in the kitchen so we went for this option for the same price). We also have full system monitoring for consumption, heat generation and COP.

House background- average 1960’s 3 bed semi with CWI, DG and 300mm loft insulation. Result of Heat loss calc 7kW at -3C.

System setup- designed for a flow temperature of 35C though the 9 rads. Old rads were nearly all P+ which were upgraded to K2/K3. No buffer/LLH/glycol. 22mm primaries in the ceiling were retained as was the 10mm microbore to the rads. We were keen to go for long term efficiency even if it meant some extra rad upgrades. 

 

Labour hours-

Site survey and room-by-room heat loss calculation- 3 hours 

System design- 6 hours

Removal of 9x old radiators and old combi boiler- 12 hours 

Fitting new rads- 12 hours

Electrician installing a supply ready for HP- 5 hours

Siting and installing outdoor and indoor units 20 hours

Commissioning- 5 hours

DNO/MCS/BUS paperwork- who knows but more time than they’d like I’m sure 

Answering all my emails- probably 3 hours 😂

 

The installer and the designer were both highly critical of the current MCS system from their perspective too- a ridiculous amount of irrelevant box ticking that has no bearing on whether that installation is actually any good. I was listening to some of the engineers on the MCS working group though and it sounds like some aspects are changing for the better (the installer wasn’t MCS certified but they work with the designer who is and is the nominated person). The installer also does PV and MVHR but isn’t MCS for the PV as it’s not worth the hassle to him.

You got a good deal, at least by the standards here in the South East.

 

I posted above that I have pitched to the Guardian the outline idea for an article suggested by others upthread.  Do you think your installer be prepared to share his/her views on MCS if the pitch gets anywhere.  Ideally it needs both consumers and 'the industry' to speak up!

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

it needs a bit of engineering nouse on the part of the reader

If the info goes to a journalist then they can dumb it down as appropriate.

If it goes in 'Which' magazine, all the papers can pick it....where their masters allow.

 

Can we read your pitch please? OK to say no.

[JamesPa]

Here you go, the Guardian provides guidelines as to what to put in a pitch and I followed them.  If someone else wants to adapt and improve and make a 'competing' pitch feel free.  I'm not desperate to write this, I just want the subject aired.

 

Dear Mr Evans

 

I would like to pitch an idea for an area that I feel the Guardian needs to explore further, namely the obstructions put in place by the Heat Pump Installation Industry (and in particular MCS) and the planning system to the deployment of domestic heat pumps.  

 

The conclusions I have reached follow a journey of over two years during which I have been attempting, but have so far failed, to get quote for the installation of a heat pump in my house which is both technically sensible and reasonably priced (say up to £10,000, perhaps £12,000 after grant, still more than twice what I would have to pay for replacing my gas boiler!).  I am prepared to write an article myself if that is the best way forwards, however I am not a journalist and would be equally happy, perhaps more happy, to contribute my experiences to another who was writing the article.  It might enhance the article if there were some contribution/comment from some of the more innovative installers, Octopus and indeed MCS.

 

I have summarised below the a summary of the constraints imposed by the installation industry and the planning system.  Together these create a virtual closed shop of installers that is obliged to follow rigid rules which are in many respects not appropriate to the target situation, namely retrofits, and can easily more than wipe out the 'benefit' of the BUS grant.  This protects the installer, but disadvantages the consumer.

 

I believe I am well placed to contribute because

 

1.    I have been actively trying to get a heat pump installed in my house for the past 2 years and have failed to get a sensible quote, or planning consent (which may be necessary in my case and is certainly necessary if I want to avoid the MCS overhead)

2.    I have engaged extensively with others in a similar position though forums on BuildHub and The Renewable Heating Hub.  The discussions have thrashed out many of the issues.  There is of course considerable disagreement and dissent, but key, commonly agreed on, issues stand out.

3.    I have a degree in physics and spent 25 years of my career in engineering, so can understand the technical issues

4.    Redacted for this forum - as its probably enough uniquely to identify me

 

I believe this story needs to be told now (say within the next 2-3 months) because MCS is currently reviewing its policies and the Government is currently reviewing PD rights in relation to heat pumps, however in neither case does there appear to be any way for the 'consumer' to make representations or be part of the review process.

 

I hope that this might be of interest as I firmly believe that the Guardian needs to explore this somehow.

 

-----------------------

 

Summary of principal constraints

 

In summary the obstructions put in place by the industry are

 

1.    The technical requirements imposed by MCS, frustrate innovation and make it very difficult to install a Heat Pump under MCS rules without unnecessarily replacing elements of the system other than the heat pump itself, even if the existing equipment is technically satisfactory and perfectly capable of working with heat pumps.  In a typical retrofit this can add £2000-£5000 to the cost

2.    The method mandated by MCS for calculating whole house loss is fundamentally flawed in many retrofit situations, because in many such situations the fabric details (on which the calculations depend) are unknown.  This has a tendency to lead to over-specification further pushing up costs.

3.    There is an overhead associated with the MCS certificate (for each installation) itself, approximately £1250 according to one installer

 

Together these more than eliminate the value of the grant and expose the customer to unnecessary disruption.  I would also argue that this tends to protect the installer, by providing a set of rigid rules which, if the installer follows them, pretty much immunises him from complaint.  Given that MCS is justified largely on the grounds of consumer protection, it appears to be failing

 

The planning system puts the following constraints in place:

 

1.    Domestic Heat pumps can only be installed under permitted development rights if the installation is done to MCS rules by an MCS installer

2.    My LPA at least (and I have the impression others) impose more stringent requirements on the noise specification if you seek express consent, than are imposed if you install under permitted development

 

Together these obstructions create virtually a 'closed shop'.