Gas boiler lobby obstructing heatpumps

[JohnMo]

Vaillant alone are making 500,000 air to water heat pumps and they are not a global major player.

 

Air to water monobloc adds a plate heat exchanger and if you are lucky a circulation pump. No need for for the indoor unit that come with air 2 air.

 

I paid £1300 for 6kW. It was on eBay from a dealer, they wouldn't be selling at a loss.

[Beelbeebub]

4 hours ago, DanDee said:

https://www.theheatpumpwarehouse.co.uk/shop/heat-pumps/air-source-heat-pumps/samsung-5kw-r32-monobloc-air-source-heat-pump/

Yeah I've seen those, I think they are being flogged off cheap because the next gen has been released. Basically clearing the decks. But it does underline that they don't need to cost a fortune.

 

Also Samsung's need a Samsung controller which is £400(?!). But IIRC they are the.moat bare bones units, no pump, no expansion vessel, just a HP with a plate heatexchanger.

 

If it had an "open source" control system so you didn't need to use a manufacturer specific one. It would be pretty close to my concept.

 

(Also, paint the damn things black!)

[Beelbeebub]

19 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Vaillant alone are making 500,000 air to water heat pumps and they are not a global major player.

 

Air to water monobloc adds a plate heat exchanger and if you are lucky a circulation pump. No need for for the indoor unit that come with air 2 air.

 

I paid £1300 for 6kW. It was on eBay from a dealer, they wouldn't be selling at a loss.

£1,300 or less is exactly where we should be aiming! If the rules allowed that to be stuck on a little flat and run for the same cost as a gas boiler (however that is arranged) uptake would soar and heating related CO2 would start to fall (and fall further as people optimised the systems with experience)

Edited July 23, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[DanDee]

3 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

Also Samsung's need a Samsung controller which is £400(?!). But IIRC they are the.moat bare bones units, no pump, no expansion vessel, just a HP with a plate heatexchanger.

I thought you said "I think a bare bones 5kw monoblock could be under 2k eventually." Can you make up your mind?

With the extra cost for the controller it's 2k without vat. I know it's a unicorn but there are HP in the close range 2k-2.5k bare bone.

https://www.theheatpumpwarehouse.co.uk/shop/heat-pumps/air-source-heat-pumps/lg-therma-v-5kw-r32-monobloc-s-air-source-heat-pump-hm051mr-u44/ All included, I think.

[Beelbeebub]

47 minutes ago, DanDee said:

I thought you said "I think a bare bones 5kw monoblock could be under 2k eventually." Can you make up your mind?

With the extra cost for the controller it's 2k without vat. I know it's a unicorn but there are HP in the close range 2k-2.5k bare bone.

https://www.theheatpumpwarehouse.co.uk/shop/heat-pumps/air-source-heat-pumps/lg-therma-v-5kw-r32-monobloc-s-air-source-heat-pump-hm051mr-u44/ All included, I think.

Calm down, it proves you *can* get the cost of HP down to boiler levels. That low cost is fairly unusual cut price. It needs to be come the usual cost.

 

That is pretty much the same as a system or regular boiler. 

 

Which is what we want. 

 

The flies in the ointment are the mcs requirements, the probability that just a boiler to HP without any other upgrades won't be cheaper to run and (importantly in this case) the control system isn't compatible with a straight swap (afaik) you can't just connect up to the existing system. You need some sort of interface, and you only have one to choose from, the Samsung. Which is why I mentioned the control box cost (which seems extortionate).

 

Shows what's possible tho.

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

the control system isn't compatible with a straight swap (afaik) you can't just connect up to the existing system

 

Grant and CoolEnergy can be interfaced quite easily to an existing S-Plan system as they accept external contact closures as inputs. But they are both R32 and I would prefer R290, Grant are bringing one out next year (also made by Chofu).

[dpmiller]

I'd say all the "cheaper" ones have simple contact-closure inputs and only need their own controller for flow setpoint etc. Heck some even have that controller on the outdoor unit.

 

All @Beelbeebub needs to do is man up and order a containerload of his choice direct from the chinaman and presto! 30 cheap and easy heatpumps...

[Beelbeebub]

7 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

Grant and CoolEnergy can be interfaced quite easily to an existing S-Plan system as they accept external contact closures as inputs. But they are both R32 and I would prefer R290, Grant are bringing one out next year (also made by Chofu).

I know grant gets.stick.for.dumbing down the HP.and not running it in theost efficient way, but there is something to be said for making it as close to the boiler people are.used to as possible.

[Beelbeebub]

2 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I'd say all the "cheaper" ones have simple contact-closure inputs and only need their own controller for flow setpoint etc. Heck some even have that controller on the outdoor unit.

 

All @Beelbeebub needs to do is man up and order a containerload of his choice direct from the chinaman and presto! 30 cheap and easy heatpumps...

I wish I could. 

 

Current problems (apart from the cash and space).are the restrictions around fitting them (planning) and the biggie - unless I can "tune" them really well the bills will go up, even if the carbon goes down. 

[JamesPa]

24 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I'd say all the "cheaper" ones have simple contact-closure inputs and only need their own controller for flow setpoint etc. Heck some even have that controller on the outdoor unit

Contact closure for dhw seems to me to be perfectly ok if you choose to run dhw at ft 65-70 and thus are able to retain the existing dhw system, which is a condition for a low cost install.  Many if not most seem to have this capability.    

 

Combine this with weather compensated space heating which afaik all do natively with their controller and surely you are good to go.

 

I'm pretty sure grant now implement weather compensation so if you treat the room thermostat as a temp limiter not a temp controller that should be ok too.

 

Prices of the more powerful and higher spec units (which look nicer) are still quite high though, I guess time will fix this.

Edited July 24, 2023 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

 

I'm pretty sure grant now implement weather compensation

The controller always had it. Although it looks like an S or Y plan it's actually X plan, because they run to different flow temps, CH can be WC and DHW has up to 60 deg.

 

A small Grant ASHP can be bought for around £2k, has its own controller, comes with flex hoses. Grant add a seperate interface to replicate S plan and a timer for DHW. All of which is added to make it feel like an oil or gas boiler install. Grant corporate have the MCS certificate, they do the design, any Grant certified boiler installer can then install, unit commissioning is done by Grant corporate I believe.

[JohnMo]

Just had a look at the heat pump guide by MCS.

 

And found this (third option was for a combined system).

 

5.2. Heat Pump System Type Options

• Space Heating Only

The heat pump provides heat only to heat the space. Domestic hot water for sanitary purposes (if required) is provided by a separate system which may or may not be another heat pump.

• Domestic Hot Water Only

This heat pump is dedicated to heat up

domestic hot water. Any space heating

requirement is supplied by alternative means.

This can be a popular solution on large

projects such as multi residential apartments when services are centralised e.g. heat network systems.

 

So using this available configuration may be away around not changing your existing cylinder. Say you heat on E7 and don't want to change - ask them to add a 3 way valve (and wiring) just in case you change your cylinder at a later date. Get your MCS ticket, get a plumber in and pipe up the cylinder how you want.

[Beelbeebub]

13 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Just had a look at the heat pump guide by MCS.

 

And found this (third option was for a combined system).

 

5.2. Heat Pump System Type Options

• Space Heating Only

The heat pump provides heat only to heat the space. Domestic hot water for sanitary purposes (if required) is provided by a separate system which may or may not be another heat pump.

• Domestic Hot Water Only

This heat pump is dedicated to heat up

domestic hot water. Any space heating

requirement is supplied by alternative means.

This can be a popular solution on large

projects such as multi residential apartments when services are centralised e.g. heat network systems.

 

So using this available configuration may be away around not changing your existing cylinder. Say you heat on E7 and don't want to change - ask them to add a 3 way valve (and wiring) just in case you change your cylinder at a later date. Get your MCS ticket, get a plumber in and pipe up the cylinder how you want.

That's what I plan for the elec only flats, they have electric showers and immersion cylinders already. It's the heating load thata makes.tge bulk of consumption.

 

Very useful info, presumably that means I can claim the 5k subsidy which might tip the balance.in favour of that route. It would pay for a cheap pump and some fan coil radiators, I only plan on

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Just had a look at the heat pump guide by MCS.

 

And found this (third option was for a combined system).

 

5.2. Heat Pump System Type Options

• Space Heating Only

The heat pump provides heat only to heat the space. Domestic hot water for sanitary purposes (if required) is provided by a separate system which may or may not be another heat pump.

• Domestic Hot Water Only

This heat pump is dedicated to heat up

domestic hot water. Any space heating

requirement is supplied by alternative means.

This can be a popular solution on large

projects such as multi residential apartments when services are centralised e.g. heat network systems.

 

So using this available configuration may be away around not changing your existing cylinder. Say you heat on E7 and don't want to change - ask them to add a 3 way valve (and wiring) just in case you change your cylinder at a later date. Get your MCS ticket, get a plumber in and pipe up the cylinder how you want.

I cant find this in MIS3005-D which is the defining document for both PD and grant.  Where is this please?

 

Having said that neither can I find in MIS 3005-D a requirement that the heat pump serves both DHW and Space heating.  I thought there was one, but I cant find it.  It doesn't help that MIS3005-D is not searchable!  However it is a requirement for the BUS grant https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232349/regulation/9

 

So a HP can be installed to MCS rules under PD for space heating only, but you cant claim the BUS grant in this case.

Edited July 24, 2023 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

Source document attachedHeat-Pump-Guide.pdf

 

It may get you out of asking for for planning permission, grants are another question.

[JamesPa]

6 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Source document attachedHeat-Pump-Guide.pdf

 

It may get you out of asking for for planning permission, grants are another question.

Thats the conclusion I now reach.  You can do space heating only under MCS (and thus permitted development), but you then cant get the grant.

[JohnMo]

the next question would be, will the MCS installer or person quoting accept that you can do space heat only and would get a better price,knowing you cannot get the grant.

[JamesPa]

17 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

the next question would be, will the MCS installer or person quoting accept that you can do space heat only and would get a better price,knowing you cannot get the grant.

Well they will still have all the MCS overhead, but the won't have to submit the grant application.  So you might get a bit better 'deal.  The job is vastly simpler and less risky without DHW so the reduction should be substantial.  It might depend on how a job without DHW fits around other jobs in a week.  Currently I'm pretty sure many plan for one week x 2 people which is very 'neat'

 

Of course if MCS weren't a government supported closed shop an ordinary plumber could just fit it in around other jobs.

Edited July 24, 2023 by JamesPa

[DanDee]

On 23/07/2023 at 18:16, Beelbeebub said:

 

(Also, paint the damn things black!)

[Beelbeebub]

Honestly, if "sticks out too much" and "not in keeping" are objections..... That's what you end up with.

[JamesPa]

11 hours ago, DanDee said:

Nice one.  If Im not too much mistaken its a Stiebel Eltron, so somebody paid a pretty penny for this.

 

I suspect many householders may be more sensitive to appearance that planning authorities, except on flats of course where the visual prospect of lots of different, differently placed, wonky units on the visible elevation is pretty naff albeit invisible to the occupants.

 

Its a shame that MCS and PD discourages front placement, which in many cases is the least noise sensitive location.  Is there really a problem with an HP on or adjacent to the front drive.  It has much less physical volume than a car and could be equally a status symbol.  Several HP manufacturers illustrate their models proudly displayed in front of a modern Scandi/Modern Germanic style house.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Is there really a problem with an HP on or adjacent to the front drive.

Yes - they're more easily stolen:

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/how-to-protect-your-heat-pump-from-theft

 

[SteamyTea]

If heat pumps get stolen, and replaced with new units by the insurance companies, then that is a good thing.

It means the insurance companies are helping to pay for installations.  HPs are not like stolen cars, they are not used once and then burnt out.

[DougMLancs]

I’ve seen similar claims about stolen HP ‘s on another forum by a company selling tracking equipment for heat pumps. When it was looked into then it was a hugely inflated stated risk based on a small number of occurrences and not all were even in the UK. 

[Beelbeebub]

38 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes - they're more easily stolen:

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/how-to-protect-your-heat-pump-from-theft

 

Are they?  Unless you are nicking for scrap, in which case any metal is vulnerable, you have to remove a HP fairly carefully or all you will end up with is scrap.

 

Unless they turn up when you are away and pretend to be legit plumbers doing some work, someone (probably inside the house) will notice.