Post and beam Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 A company that provided me a quote for ASHP has told me that the present proposed location as per my planning elevations and floor plans is not allowed. It is between 2 kitchen windows. Apart from noise to neightbours and clearance for airflow i did not realise there were such restrictions. I have looked through the building regs 2022 and cannot see what the issue is. Can anyone enlighten me please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canski Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 I'm interested in this as well if anyone has any ideas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 Units with R290 refrigerant have restrictions because it's heavier than air and flammable. They will be detailed in the instructions, suggest you check them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eandg Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 Our installer also moved the site of our ASHP saying the regs only allowed it in sub-optimal locations where there were no alternatives. Can't recall the details as we were happy enough to adapt so didn't fight him on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 16 hours ago, JamesPa said: Units with R290 refrigerant have restrictions because it's heavier than air and flammable. They will be detailed in the instructions, suggest you check them. Here you are (from Vaillant brochure), not quite to scale, their units are 1100mm wide: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 is it an R290 unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted July 16, 2023 Author Share Posted July 16, 2023 Thanks guys. That Vaillant diagram from @sharpener is exactly the one that i was given. It is a 7kw Vaillant that has been quoted for. As i am not keen on looking for a new location i think the best option is to find an R32 install Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 A lot more choice with R32 but you will miss out on the higher flow temps and greater CoP with R290. Maybe they do not matter, or are not as important as the location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 R290 can give a greater CoP at higher flow temps, but there is very little or no difference at 35 flow. Vaillant 7kW has a SCoP of 4.36 at 35 deg. Mine (Maxa/Viessmann a CO2 one rated at 6kW has SCoP of 4.46. The 7kW vaillant is really closer to a 10kW machine, a CO2 one at 10kW has SCoP 4.53. Look at any spec sheets for your application and expected flow temps before choosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 20 minutes ago, JohnMo said: R290 can give a greater CoP at higher flow temps, but there is very little or no difference at 35 flow. Vaillant 7kW has a SCoP of 4.36 at 35 deg. Mine (Maxa/Viessmann a CO2 one rated at 6kW has SCoP of 4.46. The 7kW vaillant is really closer to a 10kW machine, a CO2 one at 10kW has SCoP 4.53. Look at any spec sheets for your application and expected flow temps before choosing. Which model is that? Do you mean an r744 pump? I'm quite interested in those, they have very different characteristics from usual pumps but apart from a mitsubishi unit seen any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Maxa i-32V5 which he the same as a Viessmann Vitocal 100-A. It has CO2 refrigerant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 43 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Maxa i-32V5 which he the same as a Viessmann Vitocal 100-A. It has CO2 refrigerant. Those are listed as r32 on the website? Is there an r744 variant? Special order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Too late/early - correct they are R32 models. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 47 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Too late/early - correct they are R32 models. Ah! Thought I'd missed something! I don't know if CO2 will catch on here. It seems great for hot water heating but not so good for heating due to the requirement for a low return temp. I can see maybe it might be good for those all in one extract/heatpump/hotnwater cylinder things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob77 Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 My ASHP is under the kitchen window. I now see from other threads on here that it is not in a "legal" location as it is less than 1 metre from the boundary. But neither the installer nor the planning/building control inspectors mentioned this at all. In fact the installer was going to put it backing onto our boundary fence (against the pavement) and only changes the location to the front wall of the house because the builder failed to put the concrete slab in place in time in the intended location! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bob77 said: My ASHP is under the kitchen window. I now see from other threads on here that it is not in a "legal" location as it is less than 1 metre from the boundary. But neither the installer nor the planning/building control inspectors mentioned this at all. In fact the installer was going to put it backing onto our boundary fence (against the pavement) and only changes the location to the front wall of the house because the builder failed to put the concrete slab in place in time in the intended location! The 1m rule is only if you're installing it under permitted development. Building control don't enforce PD rules (in general) so not a surprise they ignored it, and if planning officers were looking at then it suggests you have installed it under planning permission instead of PD, thus if PP passed with it against the boundary you are good to go and should be able to ignore the 1m rule completely. If it's a boundary with a highway then this is completely reasonable. You're not going to keep anyone awake at night by blowing air into the street. Edited August 27, 2023 by joth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob77 Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, joth said: The 1m rule is only if you're installing it under permitted development. Building control don't enforce PD rules (in general) so not a surprise they ignored it, and if planning officers were looking at then it suggests you have installed it under planning permission instead of PD, thus if PP passed with it against the boundary you are good to go and should be able to ignore the 1m rule completely. If it's a boundary with a highway then this is completely reasonable. You're not going to keep anyone awake at night by blowing air into the street. We had planning permission for the extension (which I was surprised to get accepted building right up to the boundary - we are on a corner plot and our side extension wall fronts right up to the pavement, less a small setback for the eaves, whereas I thought they would insist on leaving a gap). But the application did not mention the ASHP, so that was installed under PD. Edited August 27, 2023 by Bob77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bob77 said: We had planning permission for the extension (which I was surprised to get accepted building right up to the boundary - we are on a corner plot and our side extension wall fronts right up to the pavement, less a small setback for the eaves, whereas I thought they would insist on leaving a gap). But the application did not mention the ASHP, so that was installed under PD. well, if it wasn't on the plans then it's not a big surprise the planning officer didn't comment on it You can either move it, apply for retrospective planning permission, or just ignore the problem until someone complains. Edited August 27, 2023 by joth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 6 hours ago, Bob77 said: My ASHP is under the kitchen window. This was the issue in my case, not the 1 metre away requirement. We have 2 kitchen windows on the south side of the kitchen. They are about 3 metres apart. I was told that if i wanted to keep the ASHP between the windows i could move more towards one end and make the consequent closer window a non opening window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 Aren't you looking to put your HP under a window? The diagrams show exclusion to the side, in front, behind, but not above the top of the HP. R290, propane, is heavier than air. The worry is any leak might allow propane to sink down and flow into the house, say through an air brick or pool in a light well or drain gully. It's not going to float up into a window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 15 hours ago, Beelbeebub said: Aren't you looking to put your HP under a window? Yes 15 hours ago, Beelbeebub said: It's not going to float up into a window. I know. But it was not me that said i could not do it. It was a heat pump installation company. Just goes to show that getting ' expert advice' from the industry cannot always be relied upon. As it happens a second opinion from another company,(In Ipswich) advocating a Vaillant R290 machine have said that as long as the window sill is at leat 1mm above the top of the pump then all is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beelbeebub Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Post and beam said: Yes I know. But it was not me that said i could not do it. It was a heat pump installation company. Just goes to show that getting ' expert advice' from the industry cannot always be relied upon. As it happens a second opinion from another company,(In Ipswich) advocating a Vaillant R290 machine have said that as long as the window sill is at leat 1mm above the top of the pump then all is good. That sounds better. The vaillant machines look really good anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markocosic Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Just sack the instruction manual (manufacturer's opinion; not law) into the bin where it belongs. They are covering continental scenarios where houses have basements (not a good place for propane) and you're not allowed to pipe in unlimited amounts of methane or store 30 kg of propane within the home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, markocosic said: Just sack the instruction manual (manufacturer's opinion; not law) into the bin where it belongs. They are covering continental scenarios where houses have basements (not a good place for propane) and you're not allowed to pipe in unlimited amounts of methane or store 30 kg of propane within the home. Very sensible advice if it weren't for MCS rules and our crazy permitted development regime. Instruction manuals adhered to rigidly, and immovable interpretations of regulations (eg G3 where the regulations are entirely sensible but the industry interpretation is hopelessly constraining) are holding this industry back and costing the customer big time. We need intelligent engineering solutions not installation by numbers. Sadly our government, doubtless spurred on by an installation industry that cares about protecting itself above all else, have more or less legislated against engineering solutions thus propping up an industry that needs to think and innovate not forever tell consumers what they 'cant' or 'must' do. Edited August 30, 2023 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted August 30, 2023 Share Posted August 30, 2023 Even the Vaillant installers themselves don't seem to know about this. Scroll down to the 19 Aug posting by Rob Samuel Kinghan on this site. Total tale of doom and woe, not helped by them also installing a volumiser as per a Daikin schematic! Fortunately they agreed to move it but I doubt there was much profit in the job after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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