Soakaway.

[Big Jimbo]

I have been thinking about the rainwater from the new house i will be building, while i am waiting for the building reg drawings to be done. I'm on clay, so i thought i would go and dig a hole to see what the ground was like at a bit of depth. I dug a hole 2.1m deep. Now it's been very dry recently, so i left the hole open for about 48 hours to see if i had any water ingress. I had none, so it would suggest that the water table is low (atleast at this time of year.) I then put about 300mm of water in the bottom, and went in to make a cup of tea. Hoping that when i returned the water would be gone. Anyway, 24 hours later i recon the water level had dropped by about 10mm. Now i hate the big old concrete rings sunk deep into the ground. Only because i have had they fail twice in the passed. I much prefer the crate systems which obviously sit nearer the surface, but usually cover a wider area. I will have an area to the front of the new property near the front boundary which i am intending to turn into a wild area. This would be an ideal spot for me to put a 6 cubic meter crate system. 3m x 2m, or even 3m x 3m.

Outside my property i have a ditch then the road. (No pavement) I have riparian rights over this ditch. I know that because the council came One day and told me that the road was flooding because my ditch was always full of water when it rained. I pointed out (To the spotty Youth) that the reason my ditch was full of water was because i was the only person in the lane that maintained my ditch, and that because the ditch uphill, about 200m was not maintained, my 90ft section of ditch was the only place that water running down the lane could enter the ditch. I'm not sure he quite understood, but left after scratching his head, and i never heard from him again.

Now i believe that i have the right to discharge an overflow from my soakaway into this ditch, (anybody able to confirm that) The reason i ask, is that i expect the council might resist because i am likely to cause flooding to the road (The ditch is blocked uphill, and downhill from my frontage)

Any thoughts ?

Thanks in advance for any response.

[crispy_wafer]

I’d just discharge to your ditch anyway, in fact we are similar, privately maintained road with a roadside drain, I’ve put a 2 ft deep stone filled French drain from and through my garden into it.  Conveniently the soakaway crates  from the new build is right next to my stone filled French drain.  We have clay at about 1m, so pretty slow draining during the wetter times.  All good now!

[joe90]

I was on clay and when the building inspector came around he said “where are you going to put the soakaway?” To which I replied “ you mean pond!” Then I explained the water in a hole in solid yellow clay would just stay there and be a waste of time, so he asked me what I was going to do, I suggested I pipe it directly to a ditch on the boundary which is where all the rain went anyway and he agreed 🥳
 

to add, if the ditch is outside you property it is the responsibility of the council to clear it downhill surely and you have riparian rights over it 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 9, 2023 by joe90

[Big Jimbo]

@joe90 From what i can find legally, the council can discharge water from the road into the ditch, but have no responsibility for keeping it clear. Again, from what i can i can find, if me discharging into the ditch causes flooding, which it will. I am responsible. Seems very unfair as i am the only person who looks after my ditch section. Because i sit in a dip in the lane, i always have flooding outside in either heavy, or prolonged rain. I really don't see what other option i have with the ground that i'm on. I might have to try and speak to the enviroment agency.

[joe90]

25 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I might have to try and speak to the enviroment agency.

Seems like a good move, where do they think the rain that falls on your plot goes naturally 🤔

[crispy_wafer]

Don't mention anything about draining your soakaway to it, just complain about the lack of maintainance and push to get it maintained, in my location we have an internal drainage board who are responsible for the majority of drains, maybe yours is too and has dropped off the map somehow. 

 

Years ago our area had flooding after prolonged rainfall, the internal drains hadn't been maintained causing the water to back up and flood over fields and into a residential area.  Home insurance companies went after the environment agency, who in turn dragged the IDB over hot coals.  Drains are cleared now at least once a year.

 

 

[joe90]

Oh bugger, thought I would try the tinternet……..

 

Common law imposes a duty on the owner of land adjoining a highway to maintain these ditches that provide natural drainage for both the land and highway. In the majority of cases the responsibility for ditch maintenance rests with the adjacent landowner.

 

and

 

A roadside ditch which conveys water away from the adopted highway is classified as a watercourse and as such remains the responsibility of the riparian owner.
 

so, thinking logically (fir a change) if you are maintaining your section of the ditch but others are not perhaps the environment agency will give you a lead on this 🤞

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, crispy_wafer said:

internal drainage board

That’s a new one on me?

[crispy_wafer]

37 minutes ago, joe90 said:

That’s a new one on me?

 

Upper Witham IDB - Wikipedia

[joe90]

Let’s hope @Big Jimbo has similar in his area 🙏

[Big Jimbo]

Right, i have just spent 3 hours +. Local Council. You need to speak to county. County council. You need to speak to local. Local Council. You need to speak to Highways at county Council. Highways County Council. Not us, try and speak to enviromental Services. Enviromental Services. Try and speak to Estates. Estates. No we dont own any land outside the front of your property. Try Highways. Highways. We have adopted the road (Tarmac Bit) but have nothing on record about adopting any of the verge / ditch.

So basically, i'm going to put a load of crates near my front boundary. With an overflow out to the ditch. I have no doubt that my soakaways will fill up, and thet i will overflow into the ditch. As my portion of the ditch is the only bit in the lane that works, it will overflow, and cause even more flooding in the lane. What else can i do ?

The only other thing i can think of is asking the water company, if i can join up to the mains sewer. Affinity Water. I can't even find a telephone number for them. When the council knock and tell me that i am flooding the lane, i will have to point out that the flooding is being caused by the fact that nobody else is maintaining the ditch.

Now i am just going to get that passed Building Control when the time comes, unless anybody has any bright ideas.

[joe90]

Well you have tried your best, as long as the flooding does not come back into your place, I would crack on 👍

[crispy_wafer]

So the road/lane is lower than your garden?   most likely the ditch was put in when the road was or shortly after to alleviate the road flooding, so when the time comes and the road floods it's up to the council to ensure it doesn't by maintaining that it drains correctly to somewhere.  That's my view.  At the moment, no one want the responsibility, only when there is a problem will it land on a desk to sort out.  Pen pushers and jobsworths, all waiting for someone to tell them to do something. (edit: being unkind, maybe they are bound by endless red tape and bureaucracy so cant be bothered)

 

When you submit to building just don't mention anything about ditches or running anything into it, otherwise every department will probably want to add their two penneth.

Edited June 9, 2023 by crispy_wafer

[ProDave]

At the end of the day id is not up to you, it is what building control will accept.

 

You could just tell BC you have installed X square metres of crates, and forget to mention the overflow to the ditch.

 

When the ditch overflows, I take it it just runs down the road?  or does the road fill up and flood?

 

Or try digging a deeper hole and see if you break through the clay into something more permeable?

[Big Jimbo]

@ProDave I'm in a dip in the lane, so basically the road fills up and floods. I have been complaining to the council about it for years but they don't do anything. I will be adding to that flooding. I do have a legal right to discharge into it. It's just a shame that nobody bothers to maintain the bit that is outside there property. I live in a place where there used to be a local brickworks, who used to extract the clay for brickmaking. Local geo map says that the clay is about 12 m deep.  I might try an email the water co, to see if i could connect to the sewer. However, my perfect cousin, Fergle Sharkey was on the TV again this morning. Even with agreement, we shouldnt really be putting rainwater into our sewers, whice are already under pressure.

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

have nothing on record 

County will have drawings of every road in their responsibility, with colour coding showing carriageways, verges they look after , other verges and details of drainage. You could ask to see it.

 

As I have said on bh umpteen times and as@joe90 says above: the rain falls there now snd goes somewhere.

If you think this through you can make it ,,," not worse" for a start.

 

Do you think it just folks away or does it run ans sit somewhereand them go..

where?

 

If you have room and willingness for a pond then it is an easy start. There is a large surface to earth but also evaporation.

Later, plants will transpire some away.

Roots and even the holes left by rotten roots can also lead water away.

My next favourite is to use only French drains. They provide even more euracd area and links to roots. Depending on gradients they might gold a lot of water too.

All at a fraction of the crates cost  with added plant and animal life.

Tell the youth that the fish and newts drink the water.

Overflow to ditch.

[Big Jimbo]

I can always plant 6 square meters of bamboo above the soakaway.  They drink like Billy the Fish.

[saveasteading]

Billy the fish spits it out again

Bamboos will take over.

Water lilies for the summer.

 

Don't forget to add water barrels to the proposal.

[Big Jimbo]

If the ground sloped toward the back, i would put a nice wildlife pond / wetland down there. Unfortunately, it slopes to the front and ditch.

 

[ProDave]

If you are in a dip in the road, then it would probably still flood even if the neighbours ditches were cleared. Water does not flow up hill.

 

There is a lot of advantage to living on a plot with a clear downward slope where water can escape "if all else fails"

[saveasteading]

I like lateral soakaways. 

Just a French drain dug parallel to the slope. Same construction for the drain feeding it.

Lots of volume and lots of earth contact.

On top of that, it increases the chance of finding fissures for the water to run through.

Use agricultural drain pipe for economy. Even use oversized or doubled for more volume.

[Temp]

On 08/06/2023 at 18:46, Big Jimbo said:

Outside my property i have a ditch then the road. (No pavement) I have riparian rights over this ditch

 

We had same problem. Our plot was/is  on clay and a percolation test showed soakaway wouldn't work. Also have a piped ditch along the edge of the road.

 

When we applied for PP one consultee said "They wouldn't want us to make flooding down the hill worse" so we got hit with a planning condition to get the drainage approved.

 

I proposed an underground rainwater storage tank with overflow to the piped ditch under the road. We wanted one anyway. The planners approved it even though it doesn't provide storm surge attenuation if its already full. Its been very useful when there is a drought as we can use it to water the lawn or the veg plot. We have even pumped the water 200 yards across the village green to an allotment. Its not used for anything in the house. Too much leaf mould gets into the tank for that. 

 

As far as I know the EA or County Council wernt involved, unless the planners consulted them a second time but I doubt it as approvalto discharge the planning condition came back too quick.

 

If you don't get hit with a Planning Condition I would just propose discharge direct to the ditch to the BCO and see what he says. Perhaps write on the drawing that you have Riparian Rights. If it becomes an issue then perhaps propose a crate system for storm water attenuation or rain recycling tank. I wouldn't involve the County Council unless someone tells you that you have to.

 

 

 

[Big Jimbo]

No planning condition, so would you think a tank with an overflow to the ditch would be better than a geo wrapped crate system with an overflow to the ditch ?

[saveasteading]

12 minutes ago, Temp said:

doesn't provide storm surge attenuation if its already full

I have twice used barrels to overome this. Of course use the water for the garden etc. But in winter you can leave the tap open to dribble to empty over say 24 or 48 hours. This reduces the storm surge which is the main concern. It may impress to submit numbers eg 50 litres over 48 hours.  = 1.04 litres/ hour.

As developers are allowed 5 litres per minute per acre they can't sensibly argue.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by saveasteading
Dribble to soakaway of course is even better.

[Big Jimbo]

Love it @Temp and @saveasteading