permitted development rights were removed under application

[borozu]

Hi,

 

I have a small project in my mind. I would like to enlarge the porch (more than 3sq) and put a new window on side of my house.

I contacted building control team and planning department. Let's start with building control answer:

 

Quote

 

Side window proposal:

The may be a maximum of 1sq/m with obscured glass, although may not be opening as the window is situated on the boundary of the property. A Building Notice application would be required with ourselves for this work and I would also suggest contacting our planning department to check whether they have any requirements before commencing.

 

Porch proposal:

Works to the porch may be undertaken without any Building Notice application providing the porch is only a porch (ie under 30sq/m, porch fully separated from the main property with an external grade door, not heated by the main dwelling heating system and only a porch area without any rooms, WC etc). Should any of the items noted not be provided or should a room/WC be proposed, the porch would be classed as an extension and therefore an application would be required.  I would also suggest contacting our planning department to check whether they have any requirements before commencing.

 

 

I've checked on gov websites and new window should fall under permitted development as it would be non-opening etc. (topic will be continued later in this post)

Questions for you guys about the porch:

1. Do I really have to install doors separating porch from main building? As I have seen applications approved without them. Please go to: 

https://publicaccess.aylesburyvaledc.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple

and check for the application number "23/00338/APP". In documents section there are drawings - proposal is accepted without door between the porch and the main building.

 

So as building control suggested I contacted planning department They replied:

Quote

 

"The permitted development rights were removed under application AB/00820/72

You will need to apply for planning permission"

 

I guess they talk about my window plan? I can not see this application on the website and no idea what this application is. Maybe the previous owner made it.

 

But anyway - my 2nd question for you guys is can I put the side window on the same application with the porch enlargment? Example sketch of window idea attached.

 

Thanks.

[joe90]

19 minutes ago, borozu said:

Do I really have to install doors separating porch from main building?

Not if the new porch is insulated to become a part of the house and planning permission is granted.

 

19 minutes ago, borozu said:

my 2nd question for you guys is can I put the side window on the same application with the porch enlargment?

Yes

Edited May 16, 2023 by joe90

[kandgmitchell]

That application they referred to dates from 1972 and may have been for the original house. It's not that unusual for PD rights to be removed if sites are tight. So it's a planning application plus bldg regs if it's not a porch.

 

I visited a similar situation years ago to find the neighbour busily cutting off the window cill of the newly installed window because it overhung his property. I think he wasn't pleased about the installation! Talk to your's nicely as you'll need access to put that in properly..........

[Marvin]

Hi @borozu Possibly challenging to trying to obtain permission for the side window. What about a Velux in the roof? would that work? Don't think you will need planning for that... 

 

M

[Temp]

The window could be problematic. Technically not even a window ledge should extend over the property boundary without permission (trespass).

 

Porches are normally Permitted Development if they meet the rules for Porches, otherwise you need PP.

 

As permitted Development rights have been removed im pretty sure you need Planning Permission for both. 

[joe90]

6 minutes ago, Temp said:

Porches are normally Permitted Development if they meet the rules for Porches, otherwise you need PP.

👍

Edited May 16, 2023 by joe90

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, Temp said:

Technically not even a window ledge should extend over the property boundary without permission (trespass).

The eves already do 🤷‍♂️

[DevilDamo]

In order to check if the porch and/or window require Planning, you need a copy of the original Planning approval. Planning should be able to email you a copy. PD is split into several different classes. It’s quite rare for ALL classes to be removed. They may just be referring to Class A for extensions or Class D for porches. But obtain a copy of the approval to check.

 

In relation to Building Regulations for the porch… if you don’t want an external quality door between the house and porch, you will require BR’s. The example you provided only confirms that person applied for Planning. It doesn’t have anything to do with BR’s.

 

In relation to Building Regulations for the window… it has to be fire resisting and fixed shut.

Edited May 16, 2023 by DevilDamo

[borozu]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

Not if the new porch is insulated to become a part of the house and planning permission is granted.

 

Yes

Thanks for the answer

 

1 hour ago, kandgmitchell said:

That application they referred to dates from 1972 and may have been for the original house. It's not that unusual for PD rights to be removed if sites are tight. So it's a planning application plus bldg regs if it's not a porch.

 

I visited a similar situation years ago to find the neighbour busily cutting off the window cill of the newly installed window because it overhung his property. I think he wasn't pleased about the installation! Talk to your's nicely as you'll need access to put that in properly..........

Ah so that's 72 means at the end of application number. Yes as I remember it's the year the house was built.

 

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

Hi @borozu Possibly challenging to trying to obtain permission for the side window. What about a Velux in the roof? would that work? Don't think you will need planning for that... 

 

M

Unfortunately no chance for Velux.

 

1 hour ago, Temp said:

The window could be problematic. Technically not even a window ledge should extend over the property boundary without permission (trespass).

 

Porches are normally Permitted Development if they meet the rules for Porches, otherwise you need PP.

 

As permitted Development rights have been removed im pretty sure you need Planning Permission for both. 

I don't think trespassing will be a problem, neighbour is ok and on the other side of the house his antenna is above my yard And as joe90 said "The eves already do" trespass

 

Ok guys so I think I will put window together with porch on planning application. Let's see what happens. Thanks @kandgmitchell for a hint about PD's removed when house was built.

 

 

[ETC]

If I owned the house next door I’d object - big time.

 

It’s also on the party wall so if you do get planning it will need to be 1HRFR (glass and frame) and fixed shut.

[borozu]

7 hours ago, ETC said:

If I owned the house next door I’d object - big time.

 

It’s also on the party wall so if you do get planning it will need to be 1HRFR (glass and frame) and fixed shut.

Like I said it shouldn't be any problem with neighbour as he's ok.

 

And yes it will be obscured glazed, non-opening. It's just to get more light on the stairs as it's a very dark corner in the house

[DevilDamo]

Why not consider a rooflight or sunpipe, which the former can be openable if needed for ventilation?

[Dave Jones]

sure i read somewhere that removal of PD rights never stands up on appeal. Could be worth putting in an application to restore them then appeal (free) if they dont.

[kandgmitchell]

Interesting approach ... submit a section 73 application to vary or remove the condition. It could work - might be a fall back if planning is refused. Since it'll take as long I'd go the planning route first. Would the planners refuse an obscured glass, fixed shut window onto a stairwell? I'd give it a shot.

 

Is it a "party wall" - probably not as "a wall standing wholly on the land of one owner ceases to be a party wall where next door ceases to enclose on it" (Anstey's Party Walls - RICS Books). The bit forward of next door where the window is to go fits into that description I'd say.

 

Just for completeness: The existing house flank wall needs 30 minute fire resistance as it's an element of structure (assuming no floor level above 5.0m) (Table B4 Approved Document B Fire Safety Volume 1 Dwellings). Any "unprotected area" in that wall (i.e having less than 30min FR) is limited in area to prevent spread of flame from one building to another. Paragraph 11.8 of AD BV1 says that unprotected areas in a wall on or less than 1.0m from the boundary should comply with Diagram 11.5. That diagram, along with Para 11.11 shows that unprotected areas of less than 1.0m2 can be ignored (there are minimum distances from other such areas). Thus keep your window masonry opening to less than 1.0m2 and it doesn't have to be fire resisting or such like, simply double glazed with a U value of no less than 1.4W/m2K or band B grade to meet thermal requirements.

 

So, a fixed, obscure, double glazed panel 1.4W/m2K or better, of no more than 1.0m2 in area will a) comply with building regs and b) hopefully find favour with the planners.

 

Phew! 

but still think a sun pipe would be easier!