Is there a no-frills R290 heat pump?

[joth]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

Hmm, there is a system design/customer education problem to solve here.

Definitely. And manufacturer.

 

Take my experience with Loxone. In my house (enerphit+ so near passivhaus) it's definitely useful having per room stats, as some rooms can heat up quicker than others and also have different ideal targets (living vs bedrooms - a family member specifically asked for the downstairs bedroom to be cooler, which is what made me finally install the actuators on the UFH manifold).  However, the per-room controls in Loxone are all very much based around schedules - "Comfort" vs "Eco" times per room, and using presence to enable comfort. Also the control block outputs are very much "call for" heat, and when that's off it's not obvious if it's because of overheating avoidance or simply not in "comfort" mode. The system is very flexible so you can work around all of this, but it feels like constantly swimming upstream, against the flow of what is intended by its designers, so it's definitely not what any installer will do by default.

 

(And this is before I mention on all the extra complications I made for myself like trying to 'boost' temps during cheap rate (or set back temps at prices surges), and enabling it for cooling as well as heating which inverts the direction all the logic, and have to deal with the fact my ASHP does not support weather compensation for cooling mode, plus our house is FAR more spotty in cooling requirements than in heating (heating via a whole house strategy basically works fine, but cooling there's really only two rooms that ever require any, and other areas get too cold if I leave the UFH cooling all the time to maintain system volume) AND I suspect my ASHP does not modulate down so well in cooling mode as in heating.  So I've made peace with the idea that cooling via FCU likely will need a buffer by default, even if heating the same house via UFH does not. But I digress)

 

[JamesPa]

8 hours ago, joth said:

Definitely. And manufacturer.

 

Take my experience with Loxone. In my house (enerphit+ so near passivhaus) it's definitely useful having per room stats, as some rooms can heat up quicker than others and also have different ideal targets (living vs bedrooms - a family member specifically asked for the downstairs bedroom to be cooler, which is what made me finally install the actuators on the UFH manifold).  However, the per-room controls in Loxone are all very much based around schedules - "Comfort" vs "Eco" times per room, and using presence to enable comfort. Also the control block outputs are very much "call for" heat, and when that's off it's not obvious if it's because of overheating avoidance or simply not in "comfort" mode. The system is very flexible so you can work around all of this, but it feels like constantly swimming upstream, against the flow of what is intended by its designers, so it's definitely not what any installer will do by default.

 

(And this is before I mention on all the extra complications I made for myself like trying to 'boost' temps during cheap rate (or set back temps at prices surges), and enabling it for cooling as well as heating which inverts the direction all the logic, and have to deal with the fact my ASHP does not support weather compensation for cooling mode, plus our house is FAR more spotty in cooling requirements than in heating (heating via a whole house strategy basically works fine, but cooling there's really only two rooms that ever require any, and other areas get too cold if I leave the UFH cooling all the time to maintain system volume) AND I suspect my ASHP does not modulate down so well in cooling mode as in heating.  So I've made peace with the idea that cooling via FCU likely will need a buffer by default, even if heating the same house via UFH does not. But I digress)

 

Proportional control TRVs without shut off is perhaps what we need.  Basically valves which somehow auto balance (based on room temp not delta T) in slow real time, but never actually shut off.  Leave the lockshields fully open (no balancing needed) and let the valves sort themselves out.  Evohome and the other connected smart TRVs, with adjusted firmware, could do that.  Hopefully somebody from Honeywell watches this forum; the market is huge and replaces several hours of plumber time.

[Dan F]

21 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Proportional control TRVs without shut off is perhaps what we need.  Basically valves which somehow auto balance (based on room temp not delta T) in slow real time, but never actually shut off.  Leave the lockshields fully open (no balancing needed) and let the valves sort themselves out.  Evohome and the other connected smart TRVs, with adjusted firmware, could do that.  Hopefully somebody from Honeywell watches this forum; the market is huge and replaces several hours of plumber time.

You seem to be describing the salus self-balancing actuators. 

 

On 04/07/2023 at 10:24, joth said:

In my house (enerphit+ so near passivhaus) it's definitely useful having per room stats, as some rooms can heat up quicker than others and also have different ideal targets (living vs bedrooms - a family member specifically asked for the downstairs bedroom to be cooler, which is what made me finally install the actuators on the UFH manifold).

Makes sense for per-room fan coils and upstairs vs. downstairs UFH.  But are you using per-room on/off actuators on the ground floor UFH?

[sharpener]

Going back to the thread title, has anyone got more information about Phnix Greentherm R290 units, their "exclusive UK agents", performance, reliability or pricing? In short, are they to be taken as a serious player?

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

You seem to be describing the salus self-balancing actuators. 

Not quite if I read the spec correctly.  This seems to balance for delta T not room temp.  That assumes perfectly sized rads which is not realistic.

[MikeSharp01]

On 28/06/2023 at 12:53, sharpener said:

Ebac have their new British designed and made 5 and 9kW R32 machines (based on Mitsi compressors) with a test house currently, and are working on a bigger inverter to expand range to ?14kW. Will sell direct from factory. Was highly impressed talking to their Head of Development.

Still nothing on their web site - I guess they are still bugging it out.

[sharpener]

Thanks for checking progress @MikeSharp01.

 

It prompted me to check out Phnix Greentherm and agents KTS web site, still looks pretty rudimentary, has anyone used them?

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

Have you looked at Kaisai? 

 

Despite their name they appear to be based (or at least have local. HQ) in Poland

 

https://kaisai.com/new-series-of-kaisai-khy-heat-pumps-with-r290-refrigerant

 

Somewhere on their website they have the manuals and some very comprehensive performance tables 

 

Edit:  They seem to have updated their website, they also seem to have switched up the models offered (12/15kw vs 9/14 previously)

 

Anyway I have the old manual stored which has some useful data tables they don't seem to have up now.

 

Due to size I've chopped the back half off with control panel instructions and parts lists

 

 

Kaisai 1st half .pdf

Edited October 1, 2023 by Beelbeebub
added manual

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

Despite their name they appear to be based (or at least have local. HQ) in Poland

 

They don't seem to have any representation in the UK atm https://kaisai.com/where-to-buy.

[SteamyTea]

On 04/07/2023 at 19:05, JamesPa said:

Proportional control TRVs without shut off is perhaps what we need.

Isn't that what @DamonHD was working on?

https://www.earth.org.uk/open-source-programmable-thermostatic-radiator-valve.html

[JamesPa]

On 02/10/2023 at 08:32, SteamyTea said:

Isn't that what @DamonHD was working on?

https://www.earth.org.uk/open-source-programmable-thermostatic-radiator-valve.html

I made that comment in the context of radiators which self balance for equal room temperature not equal deltaT.  They need to be proportional control, no shut off (except if the room temp is way too high) and crucially operate in slow time so they settle to the correct degree of opening and just stay there.  Not sure that's what the reference you give does, but certainly something that a mod of electronic trv firmware could do. 

 

The challenge would be to avoid all the control loops fighting each other, leading to oscillatory behaviour.  This might need an element of coordination, alternatively an element of randomisation in the time constants might do the trick.  It would be a fun piece of analysis for a control theory nerd!

[ZoomIRE]

On 01/10/2023 at 12:51, sharpener said:

 

They don't seem to have any representation in the UK atm https://kaisai.com/where-to-buy.

There is a Company in Ireland that sells the Cooper and Hunter version same heat pump. They also sell into UK market if you want there details PM me.

 

I have a 9kw running for the last year being working 100% 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by ZoomIRE
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[ZoomIRE]

Here is the performance details it maybe of help

 

[Dan F]

3 hours ago, ZoomIRE said:

Here is the performance details it maybe of help

 

 

 

Need my sunglasses to read that!!

[ZoomIRE]

2 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

Need my sunglasses to read that!!

Sorry for the colours just trying to help thats the way the manufacture present it I agree colourful 🙂

[sharpener]

On 02/11/2023 at 09:50, ZoomIRE said:

There is a Company in Ireland that sells the Cooper and Hunter version same heat pump. They also sell into UK market if you want there details PM me.

 

I have a 9kw running for the last year being working 100% 

 

 

Thanks for following that up! Performance looks useful too. Surprising there is no effective representation in the UK though. But after all the aggravation I think I will stick with Vaillant now they have agreed with my proposed scheme.