Are my windows fitted correctly? Help and advice welcomed.

[muzgabrak]

Hi. First post, sorry if it's long but I'd like to double check before/if I go FENSA complaint route.

 

I've checked this forum and elsewhere online for any advice but found nothing to clarify that I'm right (hopefully), and I did shopped around to avoid this kind of situation.

I've had front doors and windows (7) fitted by the FENSA certified company in November 2022. I think their job is not up to regs. (or at least to what they've said to me) but when I asked FENSA, they've said that "they're not here to give answers to individuals".

 

Issue no.1. Is there a legal requirement for a seal around the frame and the building? I live in double brick house, if that's makes a difference. Company salesman, when I've asked said they don't use foam, they use something better, a special sealant. Ready for a room revamp, I've stripped walls to bare bricks, and found nothing around one of the windows, also there's nothing on the paperwork they've gave me. You can see external trim on the pic. below, and that bit of foam was on the inside face of the frame, and I'm assuming other windows are done the same way.

 

Issue no.2. Is there a reg. that states max. gaps allowed, or what needs to be done when there's missing brickwork? One corner has a massive gap as pic. below and you can see external cladding through the hole. Not sure how it was before their visit, but fitters said nothing to me.

 

Issue no.3. Is this damage bad enough to ask for a replacement? After the above findings, I've checked the rest of the windows and found a bathroom frame with a big unsealed hole around the screw and some damage, that looks like a drill bit "skid marks".

 

 

Possibly Issue no.4. Do a frameXpress outside sill have an internal side seal or lip to stop the water leakage from the sides, and assuming correct fitting is there a tolerance for a gap between the sill and the frame? Two of mine windows have 10mm difference. I've sent an email to the manufacturer but still no reply, as their pictures doesn't show that part.

 

Sorry for many questions and long post, but that company didn't delivered what they've said, and I'm trying my best and fight for my promised "good quality window and installation". I'll try to reply to questions and/or comments (if any) as soon as I can. Thanks in advance.

 

[Mr Punter]

This is probably a standard install in the plastic glazing trade.  Not pretty but FENSA and GGF will probably not come to your rescue.  A can of low expansion foam or some mineral wool will help.

[Temp]

+1

 

I think it should be mandatory to fit cavity closures when windows are replaced if they aren't already present.

 

Go at it with a can of expanding foam but be careful as it's easy to over fill and push off external trim.  Do a test first as it can carry on expanding for a fair while.

[muzgabrak]

After reading probably every post in this topic that could be relevant to me, I'll go for a Illbruck FM330 Pro Foam Air Seal, as this was mostly recommended here. It's a shame that I've been told that they use something better than foam, and it turns that there's extra work and cost ahead of me.

[Mr Punter]

I do sympathise with @muzgabrak.  I still can't comprehend why so much of the metalwork in windows is not even corrosion resistant.

[craig]

The certified install process via Certass, Fensa and the likes isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

 

It’s a self certification process that the windows/doors have been “installed” according to building regs. i.e the correct glass has been used etc. GGF guidelines are just that, guidelines, there is no set industry standard that “must” be followed and there is no regs about what material is used to insulate between the wall and the window. Actually no requirement for it at all. Just a recommendation.

 

However, that’s a shocking install going by the pictures but it’s generally not the trade that most of us here will have experience with. I would recommended an independent surveyor is paid for to put a report together if you wish to take this further. They may have used a compriband but looks like just sealant. They should have used expanding foam sealant as a bare minimum.

[muzgabrak]

I've had a salesperson in my house saying that they do insulate between the frames with the silicone type insulator. About a week or two later when I've decided to go with this company, their surveyor came in to do a proper measurement, and he said the same thing, but there's nothing on the paperwork I've got to prove it.

 

@craig In your opinion, is it worth the hassle and money to get independent surveyor. Best case scenario I can get is some brickwork patched, and maybe one frame replaced, but I'd be really surprised with that one. I can easily do majority of building works myself to a standard that I'm happy with.

[Iceverge]

+1 to the FM330. Maybe put some masking tape over any frame faces you don't want to get foam stuck to. Much easier than cleaning it off later. 

 

It looks a rushed job. Have you paid them in full? 

 

 

[craig]

25 minutes ago, muzgabrak said:

In your opinion, is it worth the hassle and money to get independent surveyor.

No. It’s just a hassle and cost without any guarantee of a positive outcome. I’d personally fight it just to get a win but I’d piss everyone off in the process (including the wife) but that’s me being a cantankerous git.

 

I’d then get a told you so from the wife at the end of the process.

 

Bite the bullet and do it yourself.

[muzgabrak]

@Iceverge I've used to work as a sparky in the past, and I hated when people were staring at my hands through the work, so I've left them along hoping they'll do what they've promised. All paid now, as I noticed lack of insulation couple of months after they've finished.

@craig I've been already arguing with them about the quality of their glass units. I've got 7 clear units, and I've had 9 units replaced due to internal dirt and/or scratches. I've had a managers from a place that made those windows, and distribution centre, and we had a "discussion" about the scratch that they can't see, even though they are looking at it like this is their window. Both pretend not hear my argument that it's clearly visible in a sunny day, and it's pi**ing today (day of the visit). I'd love to take it further but I've got a lot of things going on and need to check is this worth my time.

 

Thanks for replies.

[Vijay]

did you pay anything by credit card? section 75??

[muzgabrak]

I've paid it all via debit card, but I don't think I'll be able to win anything there. Looking from their point of view, they've done their job, I'm just being an d**k. Unfortunately frame manufacturer said, that they cannot tell me if the difference in the gap underneath my windows is ok. Advice: call the fitters and ask if they've fitted it correctly. Being lied by them on at least two occasions, I think I know their answer. I'll give it a miss, and keep monitoring for any water ingress, and keep sealing one by one. 6 cans of FM330 already on order.

[HughF]

I hate to say it, but the retrofit UPVC market is full of people who failed at any other trade. My windows also have 1" gaps all round, no cavity closers and no foam - just like yours.

 

You need to fix this yourself.

[jayc89]

The windows I just removed were similar. Held in with 4x hammer fixings, that I was able to pull out with my fingers, and massive gaps where the sealant had hardened and fell out over the years. No foam in sight, although I guess that was less prevalent 30 years ago...) No wonder the house was cold. 

[HughF]

3 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

The windows I just removed were similar. Held in with 4x hammer fixings, that I was able to pull out with my fingers, and massive gaps where the sealant had hardened and fell out over the years. No foam in sight, although I guess that was less prevalent 30 years ago...) No wonder the house was cold. 

I genuinely don't know how this industry manages to recruit such incompetent people... It's shocking really

[Dave Jones]

smashing the frames with concrete fixing should be banned.

 

It takes no extra time to use straps and make a decent job of it.

[Dave Jones]

see you had free track marks included where he slipped of the head of the screw and ran the impacter down the frame.