Workshop build using shipping containers - Electrical Advice

[Walrus]

I've built myself a workshop using a shipping container. A 40' high-cube on a concrete pad, cut in half, ends welding up, sitting side by side. I cut out the wall between to make a bigger space, lined & insulated it, added some vents, installed basic lights & power, and internet (as it's a big faraday cage inside with the doors closed). The whole thing is classed as a 'temporary' structure (mine is the green unit on the left).

 

The reason I'm here is to get electrical advice; I'm currently running lights, tools etc from the unit next door on a single extension lead! I want to get my own standalone power connection as I want to run a welder (for car repairs) - this is for hobby (domestic) use, not as a business - and as cheaply as possible while staying on the right side of the regulations/law.

 

There is a power pole next to the unit that the existing units run from and site owner is happy for me to get my own standalone connection & meter. I have no idea how I arrange/organise this.

 

I got a quote from an electrician for £3k to supply and fit a connection, fuse board, 2 sockets, 2 lights (no meter) from the existing power pole - this seems a bit steep!

 

I was wondering if I can get a connection to a 'kiosk' behind my unit with a 16A plug for a welder and a couple of sockets to run lights & tools from? Can I use the existing connection from the power pole or do I need a new one? How do I go about getting a meter installed?

[joth]

1. You need to request and pay for a new meter head from your DNO. Use 

https://www.energynetworks.org/customers/find-my-network-operator to find your DNO

2. You need to request a meter installed by your chosen electricity supplier (British gas, octopus, etc). This should be low cost, but can be long lead time. 

3. You need to pay an electrician to install a consumer unit and outlets for whatever loads you'd like. They'll also need to design appropriate earthing strategy for a big metal building.

 

If #3 is too expensive try asking for some more quotes. There's no shortcuts to those three steps, other than paying your neighbour for electricity supply indefinitely.

 

Personally I'd put a single 32A ( or bigger) inlet on the container and distribute that via a small CU internally. Keep the content of the pole kiosk as simple as possible 

[Nickfromwales]

45 minutes ago, Walrus said:

I got a quote from an electrician for £3k to supply and fit a connection, fuse board, 2 sockets, 2 lights (no meter) from the existing power pole - this seems a bit steep!

Was this for all surface mounted conduit etc? If so, it's quite a bit of work, and trades atm seem to be thin on the ground and their prices seem to have 'elevated' somewhat recently.

What about getting a landlord meter and paying monthly to the person who owns the existing supply? That would be cheap and simple, and I assume there is at least an 80a fuse in that meter box so splitting with tails and feeding yours and their meter is easy and suffice for your needs. You'd need to reduce to a 40a switch-fuse, so you know that you won't wipe out their supply and yours in an event of a catastrophic failure on your equipment. RCBO's will of course hugely reduce that potential problem, but best to not rub them up the wrong way if they're good enough to agree to selling you your power and save you the cost of a new connection.

All dependant on how long you wish to ( can ) keep this unit / location?  

If only sporadically welding, maybe look at a petrol / diesel weld set?

[saveasteading]

53 minutes ago, Walrus said:

40' high-cube on a concrete pad, cut in half, ends welding up

For my interest, if you don't mind.

In hindsight would you do the same again? It seems a lot of work to create the box which remains uninsulated, and with unstable fronts that need infilling.

[Walrus]

13 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

For my interest, if you don't mind.

In hindsight would you do the same again? It seems a lot of work to create the box which remains uninsulated, and with unstable fronts that need infilling.

Don't know if cross-posting to other forums is allowed(!), but I have documented my build here: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/shipping-container-workshop-aka-the-bunker.480285/#post-9067112

[Walrus]

I didn't know a landlord-meter was a thing! She would be quite happy with this, as would I - the point is I want a connection I can run a welder from that won't interfere with the existing connections. 16A would be enough, so 40A overall would be plenty. Can you suggest where I look into this further?

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, Walrus said:

I didn't know a landlord-meter was a thing! She would be quite happy with this, as would I - the point is I want a connection I can run a welder from that won't interfere with the existing connections. 16A would be enough, so 40A overall would be plenty. Can you suggest where I look into this further?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/RDCRED100.html?source=adwords&ad_position=&ad_id=&placement=&kw=&network=x&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=RDCRED100&product_partition_id=&campaign=shopping&version=finalurl_v3&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxMmhBhDJARIsANFGOSvpLoLPEzbKVhPjM3GurrXahFh5UcJ1i8icOt2PMmv8-AKm2_zqxGIaAtrHEALw_wcB

[Nickfromwales]

12 minutes ago, Walrus said:

Don't know if cross-posting to other forums is allowed(!), but I have documented my build here: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/shipping-container-workshop-aka-the-bunker.480285/#post-9067112

A ok as long as it's non-commercial.

[Nickfromwales]

31 minutes ago, Walrus said:

16A would be enough, so 40A overall would be plenty. Can you suggest where I look into this further?

Right here  

Can even be a coin meter LINK if your "landlady" would prefer. She just empties this weekly / monthly etc.

 

So, from the existing "unit meter" tails, your electrician needs to cut these tails and install some Henley aka service blocks LINK to allow you to piggy-back onto the landlady's metered supply.

 

Then you take 2x meter tails ( PVC / PVC ) to a switch fuse, and take that with tails to the second meter. Job done, and fully compliant.

 

Earth will be in an MET ( main earth terminal ) already I expect, so your supply earth comes from that and connects to the earth bar in your new CU.

 

It may be a squeeze, but you could just fit a small CU inside the meter box and run your feeds from there, or just buy and install another meter box directly below this one ( may be a problem as your landlady doesn't own the pole so would be at your own risk adding anything to that ) and have a larger CU inside that. You can use the extra real-estate to mount a 32a commando ( blue outdoor socket ) to the outside of the meter box, and do the same for a 16a one, and just plug yourself into those ( if a bit cheaper and you're happy to plug in / out when there / away?

Nothing stopping you driving a pole / other into the ground and mounting another meter box onto that, immediately adjacent. Just may be way cheaper  this way, if you're happy for a 'camping style' setup vs a hard install?

[Walrus]

Could I put a 'kiosk' next to the pole, on the concrete pad and have the connections run into that? This is what it looks like inside the existing box on the pole:

Edited April 9, 2023 by Walrus
another picture

[Nickfromwales]

Yup. Just need SWA ( Steel Wire Armoured ) cables between the 2 boxes for mechanical protection.

Jump on this and arrange your own courier  

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204287508809?hash=item2f907c0149%3Ag%3AzWcAAOSwj5VkIvAC&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4O9HEkOOHmUD3FgZnoQgX2Nxb%2BzpfmjaXdpjonYNDU1YDY1Q6E65xkmGtYaSfaYj7wTp%2FPGD2iwIzSu6ug12p0qKHNYBujKSOFegxOXgpLL%2FCcuYX%2Bx8kOlFe6l%2FWO4N9b445d4Z0%2BR8iRTMASHpSFjtVLZBRneFWreI6tuO99Wavna7ioG3E2Cqib3QdRNj1hdanH1DncrRE%2FxqE9uQnSx5%2BVztSss8G0FS4AsuuNf0MvrnZG2YZ7pmrBnslaIjlLmbz%2BlksgdGFgdpi0oL2Keux%2FYA3KG2M3eDXl5DAtc5|tkp%3ABk9SR8jR0eLsYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4

[Nickfromwales]

Doesn't need to be a concrete pad, as long as the kiosk is mechanically fixed to the container it'll be fine.

[Temp]

2 hours ago, Walrus said:

The whole thing is classed as a 'temporary' structure (mine is the green unit on the left)

 

I think you mean mobile unit. I think temporary structures are only allowed for less than 28 days a year.

 

The planners can decide its not mobile and request a planning application if they think it needs one. I'm not sure what the criteria is. If they do that you could fight it by proving it is capable of being lifted onto a transporter.  

[Nickfromwales]

Most containers have 32a C-form 'plugs' LINK mounted on the outside, and then you just have a panel socket LINK on the outside of the kiosk. Make a 32a flying / aka extension lead to go from the supply  / kiosk to the container, a-la how caravan's hook up for a 2-week stay and want 230v.

Have 1x 32a for some power sockets, and off that 32a radial / socket arrangement inside the container you just fit a 13a switched fused spur and use that for your light feed and switch, with a 5a fuse installed.

Then just have 1x 32a additional for plugging in the welder, so all you need is a CU with 1x isolator and 2x 32a RCBO's and you're cooking on gas. Or electric.

 

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

I think you mean mobile unit. I think temporary structures are only allowed for less than 28 days a year.

 

The planners can decide its not mobile and request a planning application if they think it needs one. I'm not sure what the criteria is. If they do that you could fight it by proving it is capable of being lifted onto a transporter.  

If your 2 containers are physically attached to each other you could be on a sticky wicket.  Unless you are using it as one wide space, I would have kept them as 2 separate containers with a small gap, matching doorways cut and a  very short connecting link that was built to be removable so allowing them so still be lifted as individual containers.

[Nickfromwales]

This is, of course, important IF anyone actually gives a shit  

[Walrus]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If your 2 containers are physically attached to each other you could be on a sticky wicket.  Unless you are using it as one wide space, I would have kept them as 2 separate containers with a small gap, matching doorways cut and a  very short connecting link that was built to be removable so allowing them so still be lifted as individual containers.

They're bolted together so moving them would just mean undoing the bolts (main reason being so that they can't be prised apart for access). It would be a few hours of faffing, but they could be moved seperately. I did it this way with the thought in mind that if I can ever put them on my own land I could still move them.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

For my interest, if you don't mind.

In hindsight would you do the same again? It seems a lot of work to create the box which remains uninsulated, and with unstable fronts that need infilling.

I guess it's about security / safety as a steel container is a tough nut for scrotes to crack. A timber structure can be popped open in seconds by comparison, and this is even more relevant if it's an isolated and sometimes vacant location.

[saveasteading]

18 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

a steel container is a tough nut.

Not really, although i guess it deter those who can't think how to get in.

I had the poorly paying interest of repairing a few metal clad walls. 1mm steel usually. They had come with snips and nail bars....now there would be battery tools.

In all cases they removed a section of steel, but then encountered either block or timber or plasterboard inner facing and insulation.  Something must click in the criminal brain that this wasn't planned for, and they abandoned, just leaving expensive damage to secret fix cladding.

Even when there were visible fixings, they cut the steel. 

 

Storage shipping sheds on site, we fitted cheap padlocks rather than get the expensive damage of them cutting through the walls, which are perhaps 2mm thick?

 

Also designed and built a warehouse designed to deter or catch any criminal. Getting in would have been a mistake. The flying squad were occasional clerks of works.   Fascinating and challenging....but I can't say much more.

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Not really, although i guess it deter those who can't think how to get in.

I had the poorly paying interest of repairing a few metal clad walls. 1mm steel usually. They had come with snips and nail bars....now there would be battery tools.

In all cases they removed a section of steel, but then encountered either block or timber or plasterboard inner facing and insulation.  Something must click in the criminal brain that this wasn't planned for, and they abandoned, just leaving expensive damage to secret fix cladding.

Even when there were visible fixings, they cut the steel. 

 

Storage shipping sheds on site, we fitted cheap padlocks rather than get the expensive damage of them cutting through the walls, which are perhaps 2mm thick?

 

Also designed and built a warehouse designed to deter or catch any criminal. Getting in would have been a mistake. The flying squad were occasional clerks of works.   Fascinating and challenging....but I can't say much more.

 

 

 

Yes, really. I shall stand firm, sorry!

A shipping container will deter all but the most determined of fcuktard, and if anyone who is beyond their pay-grade is interested, then the bounty would have to be of interest. 
Your average scrote won’t look twice at a steel container, and will actively seek wooden sheds or structures with windows. 
 

So, “No”. 

[SteamyTea]

18 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Earth will be in an MET ( main earth terminal ) already I expect

As this a steel, temporary/portable building, won't the mobile home wiring regs come into play.

I would hope a electrician would know, but many may not have had to do one in the past.

[SteamyTea]

16 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Fascinating and challenging....but I can't say much more.

Go on, we all love a good yarn.

 

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Go on, we all love a good yarn.

 

Just a little then.

 

The building was to have contents that the police were keen stayed locked up.

Loss adjusters have standard tests for security, such that skilled criminals bringing with them a tool kit of hammers, heavy cutters and various persuaders, couldn't get in in 30 minutes. Plus all doors immune to ram-raiding and tools.

 

After we were gone, there were other systems installed, and I was informed that anyone who got in would be disabled by various noise, smoke, strobes etc, and be pleading with the police to arrest them.

 

The building looked like a slightly superior industrial building, and had simple metal cladding that could be cut or unscrewed. We didn't even remove the plastic hex heads.

Had GRP skylights too, which would have been my suggested means of entry....but apparently your criminal doesn't know that, plus they would have been trapped inside.

 

The police progress inspections involved a man with leather jacket and shades, and an impressive 'have you heard of us' identity card.

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

Back to using containers.

I'm not against this, and adapted a couple for storing sports equiment, just by putting a slab down, and cladding with battens.  but it is horribly hot/cold depending on the weather.

 

It is that these are designed for slinging about on lorries and ships, and any cutting of holes requires stiffening and framing.

 

Where I have seen them used as 'sustainable' (often a glowing article in the Architectural Press) it has been just a gimmick and ends up costing a lot more than a proper building.

 

It is a different matter if you can buy one cheap at 'end of life' and use it as a store......but they get so hot and cold.

[SteamyTea]

30 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The building was to have contents that the police were keen stayed locked up.

Would that have been their notebooks, blood stained truncheon, camera memory cards and morals.

Edited April 10, 2023 by SteamyTea