Drainage Nightmare!

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

I am hoping for some advice regarding our current drainage nightmare. Please stay with me, as this is a very long, and dull story but my husband and I are at the end of our tether now, and don’t know where to go from here….

 

1 - Accepted an offer on our house. During drainage inspection, it was discovered that the tank (on our land) is undersized, as it is shared between us and 2 other properties (installed over 60 years ago). We have also discovered that a further property connects to the drainage pipe (not our septic tank).

 

2 - Pipe from the tank runs over 150m across field behind our properties, belonging to a local estate. End of pipe is not where we were told it was when we purchased 2 years ago. Another property, also owned by estate connects to the pipe, which then drains onto rough ground, making it illegal. Our buyers are (quite rightfully) refusing to purchase whilst this is illegal.

 

3 - We have explored having a STP installed with a drainage field in the field behind us, however it isn’t possible as the percolation tests came back negative. Only options given to us now are

a) drainage mound installed in the field, meaning landowner will lose use of a large part of their field.

or

b) have a large STP installed to cover all 5 properties, have the end of the pipe made compliant by either a soakaway or running the pipe to a waterway, and share the cost with land owner and the 3 further properties on our row that connect to the pipe. Our drainage company have passed on these options directly from EA.

 

4 - Land owner is refusing to co operate, as they don’t believe they are not compliant without hearing it from the EA. They say that as they are not the ones trying to sell their property, they shouldn’t be obliged to have the works done. We have paid hundreds of £’s for investigations and reports from our drainage company, who’s findings the land owners don’t agree with. They say they only want it in black and white from EA that the end of their pipe is non compliant. Obviously, getting anyone from EA to check this seems impossible, unless we report them for illegal discharge in which case we also shoot ourselves and our neighbours in the foot.

 

Has anyone had a similar situation, or had dealings with the EA that hasn’t just been basic advice from someone who doesn’t quite understand the situation? Or would anyone be willing to forward any contacts that would be able to give us further advice. As I said, the options our drainage firm have given us have come directly from EA, but the land owners are having none of it. We are literally spending each week going around in circles....

 

Thanks

[Mr Punter]

The EA a fairly hopeless when it comes to communication or preventing illegal discharges.  The system you have needs replacing.  You probably need to focus on the total cost and how the cost will be split.  If there are 5 properties, splitting 5 ways sounds logical.  I am not sure where the "landowner" fits into this but as long as you have their consent to do the work on their land it should not be an issue.  None of this will come cheap or be quick to resolve.

 

Quite why none of this was covered when you bought the property is a separate issue that you could consider.

[Kelvin]

Have you spoken with the owners of the other properties? This impacts them as much as you if they are considering selling in the future as they have potentially unsellable houses. 
 

It is a bit of a catch 22. If they insist on hearing it from the EA then they’re inviting the EA to find you all in breach. Do you have a  quote for the cost of the works? 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

12 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

The EA a fairly hopeless when it comes to communication or preventing illegal discharges.  The system you have needs replacing.  You probably need to focus on the total cost and how the cost will be split.  If there are 5 properties, splitting 5 ways sounds logical.  I am not sure where the "landowner" fits into this but as long as you have their consent to do the work on their land it should not be an issue.  None of this will come cheap or be quick to resolve.

 

Quite why none of this was covered when you bought the property is a separate issue that you could consider.

 

Thanks so much for replying. That was my fear regarding EA. 

 

You're correct that it needs replacing. Our preference would be a STP between us and our neighbours with a drainage field in the field, however this can't be done due to percolation test coming back negative. We are out of options other than the ones that the EA suggested, and it seems the land owner isn't willing to do either.

 

The land owner owns the 5th house that connects to the pipe. So we figured that they should want to also be compliant. Trouble is, they don't see it that way, and are refusing to have works done to the end of the pipe on their land.

 

Cost can be covered - it's a lot, and obviously none of us want to, but we understand our responsibilities as homeowners with private drainage systems. It feels like we are going to lose this sale, but the problem will remain unless this gets sorted. For everyone. 

 

We are looking into possible recourse regarding why we weren't made aware of this at the time we purchased. 

 

[ProDave]

One option to explore to see if the buyer will accept.  Offer a reduction in sale price equal to your share of the upgrade work, and see if they will proceed with an indemnity policy put in place.  Though non compliant, it "works" and with the reduction in price they might just proceed.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

26 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Have you spoken with the owners of the other properties? This impacts them as much as you if they are considering selling in the future as they have potentially unsellable houses. 
 

It is a bit of a catch 22. If they insist on hearing it from the EA then they’re inviting the EA to find you all in breach. Do you have a  quote for the cost of the works? 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Yes, we are all singing from the same song sheet, fortunately. They understand that, should we lose our sale, this will keep coming up any time anyone wishes to sell. 

 

I agree re contacting the EA, but the land manager hasn't given that any thought. 

 

Quote looks like £30k, at the moment.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

One option to explore to see if the buyer will accept.  Offer a reduction in sale price equal to your share of the upgrade work, and see if they will proceed with an indemnity policy put in place.  Though non compliant, it "works" and with the reduction in price they might just proceed.

Thanks for your reply. Fortunately our buyers are pretty understanding, they have been through a similar situation themselves so are happy to wait until be can find a solution. We've offered a retainer so they don't need to worry about the cost, but they do want permissions in place before we exchange. Understandable.

 

Problem we've got, according to EA and drainage company is that we only have 2 options at present, and land owner won't let us do either.

[Kelvin]

We had a similarish issue with a previous house sale and as @ProDave suggests we used the ubiquitous insurance indemnity to deal with it. The problem with these is once you start formalising the problem, which it sounds like you have, then you can’t take out the indemnity. It’s better that’s it’s resolved properly of course. 
 

If the landowner won’t budge then it might be worth talking to them to advise that your hand is being forced to report a breach of discharge to the EA because you and your neighbours potentially have unsellable houses. You could also maybe speak with a solicitor to get some advice. Your home insurance policy should have legal cover if you elected to include it. 
 

It was this kind of situation that made us resolve to never buy another house with a shared anything or having something we rely upon on someone else’s land.
 

Let us know the outcome. Good luck!

[ToughButterCup]

Did you buy the house from the landowner?

If you did, that would explain the reluctance of the landowner to -implicitly- admit that anything is less than up to scratch.

And if you did then ...... [no point in further speculation]

 

This is the nuclear button: report the system as  non-compliant to the EA. Tell them who the landowner is. And work towards a resoultion together. 

 

You have a delicate few weeks ahead ..... my sympathies

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

We had a similarish issue with a previous house sale and as @ProDave suggests we used the ubiquitous insurance indemnity to deal with it. The problem with these is once you start formalising the problem, which it sounds like you have, then you can’t take out the indemnity. It’s better that’s it’s resolved properly of course. 
 

If the landowner won’t budge then it might be worth talking to them to advise that your hand is being forced to report a breach of discharge to the EA because you and your neighbours potentially have unsellable houses. You could also maybe speak with a solicitor to get some advice. Your home insurance policy should have legal cover if you elected to include it. 
 

It was this kind of situation that made us resolve to never buy another house with a shared anything or having something we rely upon on someone else’s land.
 

Let us know the outcome. Good luck!

Thank you, I absolutely wish we hadn’t now.

 

We’ve explained that because they’re non-compliant, that makes 4 other properties both non compliant and unsellable. But it doesn’t seem to faze him at all. Our solicitor is up to speed on it, but has urged us to resolve amicably so far, but we’ve hit a dead end now. We’ve even offered today to pay what would be the share of their property on the pipe, so they just have to endure the works, which is on unused scrubland anyway. But nothing, not interested in helping at all.

 

Hopefully tomorrow will bring better news. But I suspect we’ll lose our sale this week. 
 

 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

Did you buy the house from the landowner?

If you did, that would explain the reluctance of the landowner to -implicitly- admit that anything is less than up to scratch.

And if you did then ...... [no point in further speculation]

 

This is the nuclear button: report the system as  non-compliant to the EA. Tell them who the landowner is. And work towards a resoultion together. 

 

You have a delicate few weeks ahead ..... my sympathies

Thank you for your reply, and sympathies.
 

We didn’t buy from them. They were present during the inspection of the pipe recently but refused to acknowledge the non compliance (obvious drainage onto rough ground). 
 

My fear with reporting them to EA is that they just cut us and our neighbours  off. Not sure where we stand in that situation. We’ve asked them if they have a drainage company that they would choose to inspect as a second opinion, so waiting on that for now. We’ve even offered to cover the cost of the works on their part, but they’re not listening. We literally have no other option, so legal is probably the next route. Although where that’ll lead….

 

Thanks again! 

 

[Kelvin]

Reference being cutoff. When you bought the house this drainage access etc would have come up,  what do the legals say on all of this? For example the driveway at our last place was owned by the estate (was part of a manor house) but the 8 barns had legal right of access/enjoyment etc. We were all jointly responsible for the upkeep so paid a monthly mgt fee to a service mgt company the home owners setup. We had a covenant in place that everyone had to sign when a barn was bought/sold. 
 

Do you have any idea about why the land owner is being so difficult other than some folk just are? Is there some angle they are playing? They are holding you to ransom it seems so they must have a reason for this. Generally it’s money! 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Kelvin

[Sparrowhawk]

51 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Do you have any idea about why the land owner is being so difficult other than some folk just are? Is there some angle they are playing? They are holding you to ransom it seems so they must have a reason for this. Generally it’s money! 

Buy up all the unsellable houses at a distressed price as a goodwill gesture, fix the drainage and sell them for a tidy profit?

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Reference being cutoff. When you bought the house this drainage access etc would have come up,  what do the legals say on all of this? For example the driveway at our last place was owned by the estate (was part of a manor house) but the 8 barns had legal right of access/enjoyment etc. We were all jointly responsible for the upkeep so paid a monthly mgt fee to a service mgt company the home owners setup. We had a covenant in place that everyone had to sign when a barn was bought/sold. 
 

Do you have any idea about why the land owner is being so difficult other than some folk just are? Is there some angle they are playing? They are holding you to ransom it seems so they must have a reason for this. Generally it’s money! 

At the time of purchase, we had documentation showing where the pipe ran which was backed up by neighbours understanding who have lived here 70 years. It seems that after recent drain investigation that this documentation was wrong and that the pipe overshoots by at least a further 40m under a farm yard onto another area of scrubland on the estate. I’m not sure where we stand legally on that, but I know we wouldn’t have bought this place knowing then what we do now.

No idea why they’re being difficult. We’ve been dealing exclusively with the land manager, who is well known to be a bully. But he doesn’t like phone calls, has so far refused a meeting with myself and neighbours and cherry picks what detail to respond to in emails (ie not the important stuff!). I would like to try to communicate with the land owner himself, but it’s just getting to him that’s tricky. He seems to be locked away in a tower somewhere…

 

Now we’re not made of money, but we are quite desperate to have this dealt with, which is why we offered to cover the land owners share of costs. But they have not accepted this offer so I’m not sure if it’s money driven. I’m fairly sure this chap doesn’t like that we’ve told him his pipe is non compliant. I get that it hurts to be told you’re wrong 🤷‍♀️ 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

55 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Buy up all the unsellable houses at a distressed price as a goodwill gesture, fix the drainage and sell them for a tidy profit?

😞

[Kelvin]

Sheesh. I really feel for you. I know how stressed I got when we were selling our last place. It started off really straightforwardly as we got a buyer for way over asking within a week. The conveyancing was going really smoothly to begin with. We had our offer accepted on a plot of land and had found  a rental place after 5 months of getting nowhere. Everything was finally lined up perfectly. Then our sale fell through or rather our buyers sale on her house fell through twice) Then a whole load of stuff was uncovered about our house. Then the mgt company for the 8 barns got really difficult resulting in an argument on the doorstep of the guy that did the accounts. At one point we had a house we couldn’t sell. A rental we couldn’t move to. A plot of land we couldn’t start to get planning permission for. A war looming in Europe set to turn everything upside down. Plus I’d quit a highly paid job to take on the self-build. It was a perfect storm of all the risks I’d written down 7 months earlier. We got through all of that eventually. 

I’m telling you all of this because things tend to have a way of working themselves out. You just need to find a path through it all. 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

7 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Sheesh. I really feel for you. I know how stressed I got when we were selling our last place. It started off really straightforwardly as we got a buyer for way over asking within a week. The conveyancing was going really smoothly to begin with. We had our offer accepted on a plot of land and had found  a rental place after 5 months of getting nowhere. Everything was finally lined up perfectly. Then our sale fell through or rather our buyers sale on her house fell through twice) Then a whole load of stuff was uncovered about our house. Then the mgt company for the 8 barns got really difficult resulting in an argument on the doorstep of the guy that did the accounts. At one point we had a house we couldn’t sell. A rental we couldn’t move to. A plot of land we couldn’t start to get planning permission for. A war looming in Europe set to turn everything upside down. Plus I’d quit a highly paid job to take on the self-build. It was a perfect storm of all the risks I’d written down 7 months earlier. We got through all of that eventually. 

I’m telling you all of this because things tend to have a way of working themselves out. You just need to find a path through it all. 

That’s very kind, thank you. Let’s hope so! Your own experience sounds very stressful indeed. Hope things are much better now! 
 

[Temp]

I suspect you have a right to discharge into the existing pipe but you should probably replace the septic tank with a package treatment plant..

 

https://www.hcrlaw.com/blog/drainage-discharge-and-riparian-rights/

 

Quote

 

What other rights of discharge exist?

 

If you are discharging drainage water to land outside of the boundaries of your property and riparian rights are not applicable to your situation, rights of drainage may be granted with the deeds for your property.

 

Alternatively, rights of drainage may have been acquired by prescription. If the right has been enjoyed for a period of at least 20 years, then a right may be claimed by prescription. The use must be continuing, and the right claimed must be one which could have lawfully been granted by deed.

 

Drainage permits

 

Where there is a sewage water drainage to a watercourse or into ground, an environmental permit may be required unless an exemption applies. We would advise potential buyers to speak to their surveyors to obtain clarification as to whether the drainage system requires a permit or not

 

I believe treatment plants became mandatory on 1st Jan 2020 where the discharge is to a water course or ditch but its not clear where yours was going so this may not have applied...

 

https://www.draindoctor.co.uk/about-us/hints-and-tips/item/2020-septic-tank-law-changes-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=However%2C the new regulations released,directly into a local watercourse.

 

Quote

According to new regulations passed in 2015, if your septic tank discharges to surface water such as a ditch, stream, canal or river, you will have to upgrade your system to a sewage treatment plant or install a soakaway system by 1 January 2020. Alternatively, if you plan to sell your property before that date, you must upgrade the tank before the sale can be completed.

 

So if it was to a ditch the previous owner of your house might have some liability.

 

Otherwise my thinking is you can probably replace the tank with a treatment plant and assert your right to discharge to the existing pipe.  It then becomes the other land owners problem to disperse the discharge.  I'm no legal expert though. 

 

Given there are several houses involved you probably need to join forces. If one of them won't engage you may have to leave the septic tank in the ground for them to continue using.

 

Again as several houses are involved it might be possible to persuade the water co to provide a first sewerage connection. Sometimes they do this by installing their own small plant shared by a hamlet/village. 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

At the time of purchase, we had documentation showing where the pipe ran which was backed up by neighbours understanding who have lived here 70 years. It seems that after recent drain investigation that this documentation was wrong and that the pipe overshoots by at least a further 40m under a farm yard onto another area of scrubland on the estate. I’m not sure where we stand legally on that, but I know we wouldn’t have bought this place knowing then what we do now.

Clearly you bought in good faith.

 

Whoever installed either initially or later, that extension to the pipe is surely the one comitting an offence?

 

If the EA got involved, I doubt you would be in trouble, you have a ST which you were told, in writing, discharged to a land drainage field.

 

Any offence comitted would be by the person that made the alteration to make it discharge to surface.

 

I would have another chat with the land owner and give him one more chance to cooperate and agree to a communal upgrade, or you WILL report the illegal discharge on his land to the EA.

[ToughButterCup]

The rule idyl often stops where the soft and smelly starts. I don't think I've read a more exasperating thread ever on buildhub. It has all the elements of deeply nasty local hamlet life. Passive aggression, mendacity bullying. I feel for you a great deal.

 

I have a strong feeling that there is no way out of this problem other than to formalize it. Yes, that will lead to unpleasantness. Yes, it will lead to conflict. But unfortunately, I think that will be the only way to break through the crust of lazy thinking and '... We've always done it like this...'

 

Is there a way of you posting a suitably anonymized map of the problem on this thread? If we could have a look at that, we might just be able to 'see' a creative way out of the problem.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

10 hours ago, Temp said:

I suspect you have a right to discharge into the existing pipe but you should probably replace the septic tank with a package treatment plant..

 

https://www.hcrlaw.com/blog/drainage-discharge-and-riparian-rights/

 

 

I believe treatment plants became mandatory on 1st Jan 2020 where the discharge is to a water course or ditch but its not clear where yours was going so this may not have applied...

 

https://www.draindoctor.co.uk/about-us/hints-and-tips/item/2020-septic-tank-law-changes-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=However%2C the new regulations released,directly into a local watercourse.

 

 

So if it was to a ditch the previous owner of your house might have some liability.

 

Otherwise my thinking is you can probably replace the tank with a treatment plant and assert your right to discharge to the existing pipe.  It then becomes the other land owners problem to disperse the discharge.  I'm no legal expert though. 

 

Given there are several houses involved you probably need to join forces. If one of them won't engage you may have to leave the septic tank in the ground for them to continue using.

 

Again as several houses are involved it might be possible to persuade the water co to provide a first sewerage connection. Sometimes they do this by installing their own small plant shared by a hamlet/village. 

 

Thanks for that. That’s interesting about the first sewerage connection, I’ll look into that today, thanks! 
 

Fortunately the neighbours who share the tank are all on board with the work that needs to be done to be compliant, it’s the land owner who owns the property that connects to the pipe further along who won’t listen right now…

The biggest issue we have is that our current tank is undersized, we are producing too much water and need a permit. So EA will need to see that where we are draining to a legal end point in order to issue permit. If we were within the legal amount, I’d probably opt to just get a STP installed and let the land owner deal with the rest. 
 

It’s definitely a tricky one 🫤
 

[Dave Jones]

is the land owner upstream or downstream of the tank ? If downstream surely you can just connect to the existing pipe without any need for permission from them ?

[Kelvin]

7 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

is the land owner upstream or downstream of the tank ? If downstream surely you can just connect to the existing pipe without any need for permission from them ?

Yes but it still isn’t compliant which is the issue for the buyers. 

[Kelvin]

You said in the op that one of the options is to discharge into a waterway. Is this just the EA saying you can (generally after exploring all other options) or there is a waterway/ditch nearby you could discharge to? 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

The rule idyl often stops where the soft and smelly starts. I don't think I've read a more exasperating thread ever on buildhub. It has all the elements of deeply nasty local hamlet life. Passive aggression, mendacity bullying. I feel for you a great deal.

 

I have a strong feeling that there is no way out of this problem other than to formalize it. Yes, that will lead to unpleasantness. Yes, it will lead to conflict. But unfortunately, I think that will be the only way to break through the crust of lazy thinking and '... We've always done it like this...'

 

Is there a way of you posting a suitably anonymized map of the problem on this thread? If we could have a look at that, we might just be able to 'see' a creative way out of the problem.

You said it! You’d think people here would want rid of us by now! 
 

Will try and send over a map this morning.