New build sound insulation woes

[LySu]

Hi all. Looking for advice and hoping it’s ok to post here. 
 

We’re currently in a dispute with the builders regarding the internal sound transmission/insulation within our home. It is a detached property so it is just internal issues we have (although the external noise entering the home is also poor)

 

We hear all noises coming through the floors and walls I.e conversations, kitchen noises, light switches/sockets. And the plumbing/bathroom noises are incredibly loud in adjoining bedrooms. From below you can hear the toilets above flushing noisily and hear the water draining to the waste, hear people actually using the toilet 😬 and the shower water hitting the tray sounds like being in a caravan in a hail storm! I had prepared myself for less than perfect sound proofing but this is unreal.
 

We have been advised that the house has been built in accordance with regulations and while this type of home has been tested, our actual house has not. We are in Scotland, and I am aware that regs are slightly different here. The builder is MacTaggart and Mickel - which are supposedly one of the better ones. 😳
 

Also, for a supposedly well insulated home it’s not very warm and feels drafty. We’ve recently had carpets up to rectify an issue with underlay and the wooden floor panels barely join and are not level either - we didn’t notice so much at our inspection (oh how I wish we had a professional snagger- hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing!)

 

. In addition we are experiencing a leak to the front of the house due to poor workmanship resulting in them removing the front panel of the house to find the problem and fix. And the house was ready a couple of weeks early…. 🤔… I could go on. 

 

I guess I’m looking for some advice on what we can do / where to seek advice? Does it sound like my description would fit within the regulations…. Are we going mad?!? 🤯

[ProDave]

I did not know "sample inspection" was allowed in Scotland?  I know in England typically only 1 in 10 of developer new builds are.

 

The regs in Scotland do demand proper sound proofing levels things like sound insulation in the inter floor space, other measures like resilant bars for mounting ceiling plasterboard on etc.

 

Is there anything downstairs like flush mounting downlights that you can pop one down from the ceiling and have a look up through the hole to see the construction and see if there is any soundproofing insulation.

 

We know our self built house was built properly, to regs, with proper BC inspections and it does not suffer any of the noise problems you mention.

 

Normally if inspected an air test would need to be done.  Is that something they are also only sampling a few not every house?

 

What does your EPC say about the house?  Have you just got a basic EPC or the full SAP calculations.  Again for a self build a full SAP assesment based on actual air test etc is required.

[nod]

The problem you have is the minimum sound insulation standard is poor

Its surprising the lengths the housing associations go to for heat loss and sound transfer 

Most of the new builds have no insulation between the ceiling and floor Pipe boxes and loo bathroom walls need to be insulated 

But there’s no requirement for bedroom or living area walls to be insulated So the majority don’t bother 

The main culprit for internal noice No gap around first floor flooring 
which causes every noice on the bed bath floors to amplify around the house 

[Temp]

I have a relative who is an Acoustical Engineer or will be when he qualifies.  Currently he's on his year in industry sound testing offices and similar buildings. He says just about every building tested fails due to poor construction. A builder called out a colleague to do some testing recently and he found walls only half built and doors missing between the two rooms they wanted testing.

[ash_scotland88]

38 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I did not know "sample inspection" was allowed in Scotland?  I know in England typically only 1 in 10 of developer new builds are.

Unfortunately with digitisation and a recent lack of personnel investment in council building standards department large development site inspections have lead to some questionable practices, most noticeably the allowance for sending in photos as proof of work done. In other words if an issue is flagged and needs to be rectified on a site visit then the builder (or whoever is in charge of that aspect) can send a photo of the improved works as proof it has been done, as per the inspectors request.

 

NHBC, South+North Lanarkshire and Stirling (I think) are all allowing this process to happen (as well as in the past year had a large recruitment drive).

 

NHBC even has videos on YouTube demonstrating how great this would be...

[Moonshine]

3 hours ago, LySu said:

We hear all noises coming through the floors and walls I.e conversations, kitchen noises, light switches/sockets. And the plumbing/bathroom noises are incredibly loud in adjoining bedrooms. From below you can hear the toilets above flushing noisily and hear the water draining to the waste, hear people actually using the toilet 😬 and the shower water hitting the tray sounds like being in a caravan in a hail storm! I had prepared myself for less than perfect sound proofing but this is unreal.
 

We have been advised that the house has been built in accordance with regulations and while this type of home has been tested, our actual house has not. We are in Scotland

 

as its all internal walls within the same house, the walls won't be tested as they aren't required to.

 

There is a minimum requirement for sound insulation for walls and floors, but this is a lab sound reduction, not an insitu measurement, the requirement in scotland are Rw 40 dB for walls, Rw 43 dB for floors.

 

This is not a high requirement and can be readily achieved, with a timber stud wall with 12.5mm wall board and insulation in the cavity. The floor can achieve it with a standard construction with insulation the cavity.

 

The walls and floors may be spec'ed right, but its all down to the workmanship. There could be the mineral wool missing but you would have to check that is the case.

[Moonshine]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

I did not know "sample inspection" was allowed in Scotland?  I know in England typically only 1 in 10 of developer new builds are.

 

There is no acoustic testing required for detached properties to meet building regs

[Mike]

4 hours ago, LySu said:

We hear all noises coming through the floors and walls I.e conversations, kitchen noises, light switches/sockets. And the plumbing/bathroom noises are incredibly loud in adjoining bedrooms.

Unfortunately that's not uncommon. That's partly why there are various discussions here about what to specify for sound-resistant partitions & floors.

[AliG]

My parents had issues in their previous flat in Scotland with sound traveling between the floors. The builder just said that they met the specification. Again though It seemed like they didn't have to actually test individual homes.

 

I think I posted a link before to the British Gypsum Whitebook which gives the specifications for all kinds of partitions.

 

https://www.gyproc.ie/sites/default/files/Gyproc White Book Feb 2021.pdf

 

Timber joist ceiling inför starts on p427.

 

This is also useful - see p8.

 

https://www.rockwool.com/syssiteassets/rw-uk/downloads/regulations/technical-guidebook-domestic-section-5---noise---scotland.pdf

 

I suspect that you have timber i-joist floors. This is what our old cala house had.To achieve 43dB reduction you need 12.5mm acoustic plasterboard plus 100mm of rock wool. Alternatively you could double board the ceiling.

 

Thus I would check that your ceiling is to this spec.

 

When I Googled this I saw a thing fromEgger suggesting that you could achieve 44dB with their flooring, no insulation and 15mm acoustic plasterboard to save money. It may be that you have something like this. The problem with no insulation will be, in particular, that you will hear water in any pipes in the floors and walls.

 

The other way that sound travels is even when the specification is correct, builders just drill and knock holes all over the place to get pipes and cables through. You may find that by taping or foaming up any holes like this you will considerably reduce noise transmission. This is usually the main way that noise travels.

 

 

 

[LySu]

Thanks for all the responses above, as depressing as they are to read, as it would seem like we’re going to get nowhere with the builder. It’s absolutely criminal that they can get away with such a poor quality product. 

 

On 24/03/2023 at 12:37, ProDave said:

What does your EPC say about the house?  Have you just got a basic EPC or the full SAP calculations.  Again for a self build a full SAP assesment based on actual air test etc is required.

 

Not sure what SAP and EPC are, sorry! 

 

On 24/03/2023 at 16:21, Moonshine said:

This is not a high requirement and can be readily achieved, with a timber stud wall with 12.5mm wall board and insulation in the cavity. The floor can achieve it with a standard construction with insulation the cavity.

 

The walls and floors may be spec'ed right, but it’s all down to the workmanship. There could be the mineral wool missing but you would have to check that is the case.

At a meeting we were advised there is no insulation between the floors and that is the correct spec! Apparently nobody else has complained about this - which makes me think they’ve made mistakes with our property…. Or they’re lying!

 

Are there any simple solutions for retrofitting acoustic soundproofing if we end up getting nowhere with the builders? I can face lots of building work. I had come across a company in north England that blow rock wool into the stud void, tho I’m sure that won’t be mess free! 

[AliG]

Ask them to give you the floor specification so you can check if it meets the requirements of the building regs and if it has been built to spec.

 

It’s not an enormous job to fix this. You could simply double board it (put another layer or plasterboard on top of the existing board). However, I suspect insulation next to the pipes would be more helpful in reducing the sound of water.

 

If you were going to double board it you could cut holes and push insulation up inside around the pipes as these would be covered up by the new boards.

 

It’s not going to be cheap. Putting boards up isn’t expensive but then they will need taped, filled and painted. Also you would have to refit the lights.