Are these costs realistic for a 500m2 house

[Post and beam]

19 hours ago, Thorfun said:

£7m! **** me. that's insane.

Thats Hampstead. About as insane as it gets i think

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Post and beam said:

Thats Hampstead. About as insane as it gets i think

and for £7m you get a plank of wood at the top of the stairs for a study! crazy.

[Post and beam]

 A perfect example of location,location,location.

I dont see it as a £7m house but knowing the area its not a suprise

[jack]

22 hours ago, Kelvin said:

However this wasn’t really the original point you made which was ‘people expect to find fittings on a house somewhat commensurate with its value…’ That’s fine if you’re building it to sell or show off to your friends. But if you’re building it for you none of that matters.

TBF, the OP isn't making these choices just to suit himself. In his second post in this thread, OP talks about "ROI" and refers to comparative properties in his area going for £6k/m². So he appears interested in market value as well as satisfying his own needs, which is what has drawn some of the comments about fittings quality.

 

The general argument some (including me) are making is that, if you ever need to sell a house like this into the market where it's located, many - perhaps even most - potential buyers will have minimum expectations for things like number and brand of kitchen appliances. I don't think anyone is going to care that you have a Candy washing machine, since they'll be bringing their own, but a single Beko oven could very well be off-putting to some.

 

Of course it will sell, but you'll absolutely put off some potential buyers.

 

On 25/02/2023 at 15:02, miike said:

I do agree that the feeling of the finishings have to match the value of the property but I think that, especially with contemporary houses, a lot of that expensive feeling comes down to the design.

 

Having built a very modern house (flat roof, multi-intersecting box type thing that's arguably already in danger of dating), I think it's dangerous to weight things so heavily towards design relative to finish.

With sharp modern designs, you can't hide imperfections behind trim boards and decorator's caulk the way you might get away with in a Barrett box. Small imperfections can be surprisingly visible. You therefore need to ensure a high quality finish if you want to achieve the ROI you're looking for, and that rarely comes cheap.

 

I just had a closer look at your renderings. Have you priced the roof structure? There's a lot of unsupported spans and glass. You're talking about some significant (for which read "expensive") engineering if you want to keep it that glassy and open.

[miike]

2 hours ago, jack said:

TBF, the OP isn't making these choices just to suit himself. In his second post in this thread, OP talks about "ROI" and refers to comparative properties in his area going for £6k/m². So he appears interested in market value as well as satisfying his own needs, which is what has drawn some of the comments about fittings quality.

 

The general argument some (including me) are making is that, if you ever need to sell a house like this into the market where it's located, many - perhaps even most - potential buyers will have minimum expectations for things like number and brand of kitchen appliances. I don't think anyone is going to care that you have a Candy washing machine, since they'll be bringing their own, but a single Beko oven could very well be off-putting to some.

 

Of course it will sell, but you'll absolutely put off some potential buyers.

 

 

Having built a very modern house (flat roof, multi-intersecting box type thing that's arguably already in danger of dating), I think it's dangerous to weight things so heavily towards design relative to finish.

With sharp modern designs, you can't hide imperfections behind trim boards and decorator's caulk the way you might get away with in a Barrett box. Small imperfections can be surprisingly visible. You therefore need to ensure a high quality finish if you want to achieve the ROI you're looking for, and that rarely comes cheap.

 

I just had a closer look at your renderings. Have you priced the roof structure? There's a lot of unsupported spans and glass. You're talking about some significant (for which read "expensive") engineering if you want to keep it that glassy and open.

 

There's been some modifications since that rendering - primarily reducing the top floor glazing by 1/3. The CGIs were done independently of the architect, I had someone do them during the planning process to show how the materials would look to the PO. The glazing reduction makes it easier to support the structure, there's currently £20k of steel works on top of the £100k TF to get it standing. 

 

For the kitchen, I'm looking at a similar style to this - https://www.solakitchens.com/skog/
Let me know if you disagree with any of these sums but I see:

~£6k dekton
<£1k slotted wood veneer panels
~£1k lights
~£1k sink

~£5k cabinets

 

So around ~£14k before appliances. 

They've got a wolf range cooker in there, which is obviously as expensive as it gets, but still available used for ~£10k. Wine fridge another £1-2k. 

To me, that's an un-compromised luxury kitchen for £25k. 

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, jack said:

potential buyers will have minimum expectations for things like number and brand of kitchen appliances.

From my limited experience, second hand information really, purchasers of very, very  expensive houses often replace perfectly good, even ultra-expensive, upmarket kitchens immediately.

 

I suppose there has still to be some minimum standard to demonstrate what is possible.

 

I heard that there is a decent market for such second-hand kitchens, if the fitters have time to dismantle rather than rip out. But the time is usually limited, no excuses for delay tolerated....and fees ultra high to suit.

[Kelvin]

What are you putting inside the tall cabinets? Is it just going to be cupboards and shelves? They are very impractical in my experience of previous kitchens. This time all our tall cabinets are either larder units that pull out or have drawer units in them. In fact we don’t have a single cupboard in the kitchen as we have loads in the utility room. Larder units and drawers up the cost significantly. 
 

Large worktops are dear of course. Ours is 3.1m x 1.2m Cliveden quartz. 

[jack]

1 minute ago, Kelvin said:

Larder units and drawers up the cost significantly.

 

Agreed - the price jump when you add in drawers is eye-watering. They're hugely more useful/useable than cupboards for most things though.

[Kelvin]

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

From my limited experience, second hand information really, purchasers of very, very  expensive houses often replace perfectly good, even ultra-expensive, upmarket kitchens immediately.

 

I suppose there has still to be some minimum standard to demonstrate what is possible.

 

I heard that there is a decent market for such second-hand kitchens, if the fitters have time to dismantle rather than rip out. But the time is usually limited, no excuses for delay tolerated....and fees ultra high to suit.

Yes it’s what often happens. Kitchens and bathrooms get ripped out. I walked by a skip in a dear part of Edinburgh (well it’s all dear) and it was full of very expensive tiles and a large broken up stone worktop. I got chatting to the builder and he said they regularly rip out perfectly good kitchens. More often than not they are told to smash everything up too. As my old mum used to say toff’s are careless. 
 

We also have some close friends who have put a brand new Aga into every house they buy and they are serial house buyers. Four in the time we’ve known them. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Kelvin

[AliG]

I wouldn't get hung up on the kitchen it is only going to vary the budget by a few thousand.

 

A simple rule of thumb buying from a kitchen place is probably around £5-600 fitted for a cupboard and £1000 for drawers. You can definitely do things cheaper than this, but that gives a rough idea. Drawers are indeed much more useful but much more expensive.

 

Drawers for your own use and cupboards for resale!

[Kelvin]

One of the nicest kitchens I saw on Grand Designs was the re-purposed science lab wooden desks. When they described it, it sounded like a daft idea but when finished it looked brilliant. Also cost buttons.  This was in the house that was a concrete bunker. I was less keen on the house. 
 

A lot of little things massively up the cost of kitchens. My other half wanted a shadow gap all the way around the island. I was rather taken aback by the amount this added!  
 

 

[jack]

@miike: I don't know enough about costs to contribute much more on that point to this thread, but my general feeling is: if it were possible to build the house you're talking about building for the price you're talking about building it for, developer margins would be a lot higher than they are.

 

As far as I can tell, you're doing very little of the work yourself, which is the main way that self-builders tend to be able to get costs down somewhat.

You're willing to buy second hand to save money, but I think you're overestimating how easy it will be to source, uninstall, transport, and reinstall something like a second hand kitchen without signicant damage, assuming you can even find one with exactly the layout you need.

 

Who's going to uninstall it from where you buy it, for example? Kitchen fitters won't get involved in that sort of work. Your builder might help, but are they going to take on the risk of damaging things during uninstallation and transport?

 

You'll also have the issue of going to trades with a picture of your house and having them estimate based on their perception of what you're willing to pay. They'll see what you're building and where, and price accordingly. We had it repeatedly during our build.

 

I don't mean to sound negative, but there's a reason why the estimated build costs for houses are what they are.

[Kelvin]

If I could have built a subterranean basement house on our slope for that money I’d have been all in. It would have looked stunning although I doubt it would have achieved planning. 

[ToughButterCup]

4 minutes ago, jack said:

...
You're willing to buy second hand to save money, but I think you're overestimating how easy it will be to source, uninstall, transport, and reinstall something like a second hand kitchen without signicant damage, assuming you can even find one with exactly the layout you need.

 

Who's going to uninstall it from where you buy it, for example? Kitchen fitters won't get involved in that sort of work. Your builder might help, but are they going to take on the risk of damaging things during uninstallation and transport?

...

 

Here's one possible answer to the kitchen problem. At one time, we considered using a similar company. But. 

 

8 minutes ago, jack said:

 

...

You'll also have the issue of going to trades with a picture of your house and having them estimate based on their perception of what you're willing to pay. They'll see what you're building and where, and price accordingly. We had it repeatedly during our build.

...

 

We had the same behaviour three or four times. 

 

A picture is worth a thousand words - only to some.

In this context - to some companies - a picture could be a Permission Slip.

[PeterW]

47 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

 

I heard that there is a decent market for such second-hand kitchens, if the fitters have time to dismantle rather than rip out. But the time is usually limited, no excuses for delay tolerated....and fees ultra high to suit.

There is and I know someone who runs a company doing this however they have their own team who go in and remove, everything packed into bubble wrap and card, and then it’s inspected when they get to the warehouse and any minor repairs made including ordering from original manufacturers. There is money to be made, but it costs money to do in the first place !!  

[jack]

3 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Here's one possible answer to the kitchen problem. At one time, we considered using a similar company. But.

 

I clicked on several. All of them are in situ and need to be dismantled. On that point they're no different to eBay.

 

Apparently you can talk to them about dismantling and delivery - it'd be interesting to see what sort of costs are involved and who takes on the (significant) risk of damage.

 

And it still doesn't solve the other significant issue of finding the right combo of layout and design.

[jack]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

There is money to be made, but it costs money to do in the first place !!  

 

Do you have any idea (order of magnitude is fine) of a typical cost to uninstall and move a decent kitchen?

[PeterW]

Think from memory it was 20% was the cost of the original kitchen and the rest was strip/clean/refurb etc

 

This one doesn’t do the pack and ship etc but gives an indication of what can be had for change of £5k even if you binned some of it

 

 https://www.usedkitchenexchange.co.uk/shop/used-kitchen/siematic-handleless-used-kitchen-gaggenau-appliances-manchester/

 

 

[jack]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Think from memory it was 20% was the cost of the original kitchen and the rest was strip/clean/refurb etc

 

This one doesn’t do the pack and ship etc but gives an indication of what can be had for change of £5k even if you binned some of it

 

 https://www.usedkitchenexchange.co.uk/shop/used-kitchen/siematic-handleless-used-kitchen-gaggenau-appliances-manchester/

 

Yes, I've spent many an hour in the past looking at some of the stuff that comes up for sale on eBay with similar discounts. In the end, it just didn't work out for us, but I can see the appeal if you can bring together enough of the right components to suit your layout in a style you're happy with.

[ToughButterCup]

8 minutes ago, jack said:

...

And it still doesn't solve the other significant issue of finding the right combo of layout and design.

 

That was the ' ... But...' above.

[miike]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

If I could have built a subterranean basement house on our slope for that money I’d have been all in. It would have looked stunning although I doubt it would have achieved planning. 

 

Planning was a nightmare, I did a write up of it here - https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/30935-2-years-later-and-planning-is-approved-my-long-battle/

 

 

2 hours ago, jack said:

@miike: I don't know enough about costs to contribute much more on that point to this thread, but my general feeling is: if it were possible to build the house you're talking about building for the price you're talking about building it for, developer margins would be a lot higher than they are.

 

As far as I can tell, you're doing very little of the work yourself, which is the main way that self-builders tend to be able to get costs down somewhat.

You're willing to buy second hand to save money, but I think you're overestimating how easy it will be to source, uninstall, transport, and reinstall something like a second hand kitchen without signicant damage, assuming you can even find one with exactly the layout you need.

 

Who's going to uninstall it from where you buy it, for example? Kitchen fitters won't get involved in that sort of work. Your builder might help, but are they going to take on the risk of damaging things during uninstallation and transport?

 

You'll also have the issue of going to trades with a picture of your house and having them estimate based on their perception of what you're willing to pay. They'll see what you're building and where, and price accordingly. We had it repeatedly during our build.

 

I don't mean to sound negative, but there's a reason why the estimated build costs for houses are what they are.

 

A Developer would have a £250k CIL payment to make upfront for this, which instantly makes a big difference to their margin. Then from April they've got a 25% corp tax on their profit. They also will usually have developers finance at ~1% per month on top of the build costs. 

Say both myself and a builder could both get this built with materials and labour coming in at £1600m2, they'd then be at £2100m2 with the CIL. Financing costs would then bring them to ~£2300m2. They'd have financing costs on the land as well which would add another few hundred per m2, so they'd likely be in at £2500m2. 

Add in £2000m2 to the house costs for the land and you're at £4500m2 all in, with a £6000m2 sale price. Of that £1500m2 they'll pay 25% in tax, giving them a net return of £1125m2, or 25%. That seems pretty standard to me. 

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, miike said:

Of that £1500m2 they'll pay 25% in tax

It will either go on the selling price or come off the land price. The latter won't suit the landed classes, so I don't expect the tax to last long, or they will just slow down the building til persuaded to speed up.

 

Yes, 25% net is what they make as developers. Huge and unjustifiable profit levels.  Contractors make more like 2 to 5%.

[Indy]

It looks like you have done your research on costs so good luck, but my personal view is that you'll end up nearer to the £2.5k/m2 mark. You may save a little if you leave the basement unfinished and just an empty box but there are still going to be major costs when building a basement and getting it waterproofed and ready for human habitation.

 

The exterior of the house is fantastic, following this thread as there are some really neat ideas that I may borrow for our build (when it actually starts 😟)

[Kelvin]

I was chatting to the groundswork guy today. I mentioned that we briefly considered a subterranean build for our sloping plot. He’s built a few over the years. The last one he did was deep at three floors but only one above ground. The cheapest warranty quote the guy could get was £37,000 plus site insurance on top which was also dear. He reckoned it will cost £2500/m² based on his experience. 

[Haylingbilly]

I have been looking for land to do a development project but can't see any with a profit margin higher than 10%. The only plots that go with margins over 10% are for multiple units so not really suited to home builders. Even multi unit sites under £1m have much less than 20% margin and those £2-£3m are around 18%.