Barn style design

[Bozza]

  On 06/01/2023 at 08:40, Kelvin said:

Nope. The garage is £35k including the foundation and associated works. This is for an insulated 10.5mx6m garage. We are on a slope so the groundworks are dearer and we need a 25m retaining wall albeit it’s not very high. All the Windows including the rooflights are 3G. Water is via a borehole and sewerage via treatment plant and soakaway. 
 

Plus inflation. I reckon it’s added 20% since we first looked at it 3 years ago. The timber kit itself is £25k dearer than it was 4 years ago. We’re also spending more than planned on the kitchen. I looked at DiY kitchens but they didn’t have the look we wanted. We are using them for the utility room though. 
 

That cost also includes all the professional fees and planning & warrant application. 

Expand  

Crikey I built turnkey (no garage or kitchen though) with another company similar spec, size,  handover 2020, for significantly less than that, for nearly £200k less.  Looks like I got a good deal.

 

My kitchen is from DIY kitchens BTW, very happy with it/them.

[Kelvin]

You built a 216m² turnkey house including all fees and costs for £215k? 

[Amateur bob]

I have had a reponse from my designer hes alteted the origional design to try and get planners approval what does everyone think? Ill attach the image its all cladded in sandstone and natural slate roof, lowered in height from 2 storey etc

[Amateur bob]

  On 05/01/2023 at 18:11, Kelvin said:

Kit houses aren’t cheap. 
 

When you say all in do you mean everything including all fees, professional costs, planning and warrant costs? 
 

Do you have budget quotes for services yet? They can be high. Our first leccy quote was £26500. I’d budgeted £5k. It ended up £1016 and I then got a £545 refund but required me doing everything myself other than run the cable from the pole to my kiosk. 
 

You want a 4 bed house so let’s say 200m² which means £1350/m². That’s maybe doable if you do most of it yourself. 

Expand  

yes i mean everything, i had a quote for around 10k for electric and 5k for water this was 2 years ago, how did you get electric cost down from 26500 to 1016?? i would plan to organise the build myself as i work on farm so can be around for checking things, unloading supplies etc i would in theory arrange a grounds work company to do the founds etc, a timber frame company to supply and erect frame, a joiner, electrician etc etc does this seem a good way of doing it?

 

thanks

[Amateur bob]

  On 05/01/2023 at 18:15, saveasteading said:

What floor area?

 

Best get learning some trades and professions, and especially building science, and site management.

 

A main contractor who is also PM can be taking 30% on top of the nett costs. You could keep that but be taking on risk.

Every contractor has margins and overheads. sometimes a series of workers/subby/bigger subby/main contractor can be adding margins on margins on margins. Also on top of materials. And it is fair as they have costs and risks.

 

Mostly though the current stage is crucial for costs. Avoid anything out of the ordinary, and building more than you need.

 

No, really mostly, after thought, is that it seems that you aren't experienced in construction. Therefore beware of all the surprises that are yet to come, of designers who tell you what you want to hear, and of gimmicks. allow between 10% and 20% for unknowns, and gradually design them out.

I think we are starting from : 'forget about masonry'.

 

I have a rule of thumb for early advice to clients, that whether built as single or 2 storey, the useful floor area cost is much the same. Thus use 2 storey where land is scarce and single where you can.  IF the ground is good, and some more IFs that are site specific.

Expand  

will my budget not allow me to employ these trades and oversee them myself? yes i understand i have a lot to learn have a look at the changes my designer has made to the origional design exterior any feedback would be welcome, is my design reasonably cost effective?

 

thanks

[Amateur bob]

  On 05/01/2023 at 18:15, saveasteading said:

What floor area?

 

Best get learning some trades and professions, and especially building science, and site management.

 

A main contractor who is also PM can be taking 30% on top of the nett costs. You could keep that but be taking on risk.

Every contractor has margins and overheads. sometimes a series of workers/subby/bigger subby/main contractor can be adding margins on margins on margins. Also on top of materials. And it is fair as they have costs and risks.

 

Mostly though the current stage is crucial for costs. Avoid anything out of the ordinary, and building more than you need.

 

No, really mostly, after thought, is that it seems that you aren't experienced in construction. Therefore beware of all the surprises that are yet to come, of designers who tell you what you want to hear, and of gimmicks. allow between 10% and 20% for unknowns, and gradually design them out.

I think we are starting from : 'forget about masonry'.

 

I have a rule of thumb for early advice to clients, that whether built as single or 2 storey, the useful floor area cost is much the same. Thus use 2 storey where land is scarce and single where you can.  IF the ground is good, and some more IFs that are site specific.

Expand  

180m2

[Amateur bob]

  On 05/01/2023 at 18:52, Kelvin said:

Definitely have a look at the Heb Homes website though for ideas on what's doable layout wise. They do lots of different Longhouse designs and have a few smaller 4 bedroom houses of circa 130m².

Expand  

ive been looking they look like simple designs but it seems the cost is way over my budget

[saveasteading]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:01, Amateur bob said:

employ these trades and oversee them myself?

Expand  

i haven't looked at the budget, but whatever it is, you need to control the cost with management and knowledge. 

The trades should have all the skills but be aware that there isn't a lot of knowledge of anything other than what they do, and how they always do it.

 

[Amateur bob]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:05, saveasteading said:

i haven't looked at the budget, but whatever it is, you need to control the cost with management and knowledge. 

The trades should have all the skills but be aware that there isn't a lot of knowledge of anything other than what they do, and how they always do it.

 

Expand  

ok thanks did you see the changes my designer made to the origional design i just uploaded?

 

 

[Kelvin]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:03, Amateur bob said:

ive been looking they look like simple designs but it seems the cost is way over my budget

Expand  

Ignore the cost on their website just look at their designs to get ideas about layout and what’s possible. Timber kits are dear especially HH. There other cheaper build methods. 

[saveasteading]

Immediate thoughts

 

The shape is efficient. perhaps not interesting.

 

The upper windows have these interesting little blips above them. So little that they may look like an error.

Higher will be more of a feature.

Or raise the eaves by that much and do away with them.   They are costing you about £1,000 extra, maybe more,  and adding joints that increase maintenance risk.

 

Vey pleased to note that the architect has allowed 3 downpipes to allow for the breaks in gutters at the windows.

 

The arches are nice. just be aware that most bricklayers can't do them.  allow £2,000 for fancy work and lintels.

Also that most window companies do not do curves. If they do it adds about £2,000 per arch compared with the equivalent rectangle.

We have arches, and have had the units made in several sections with different top slopes, and still have to work out how to finish them off.

 

without these features, the house is a simple block, so you must decide.

[Kelvin]

  On 06/01/2023 at 13:57, Amateur bob said:

yes i mean everything, i had a quote for around 10k for electric and 5k for water this was 2 years ago, how did you get electric cost down from 26500 to 1016?? i would plan to organise the build myself as i work on farm so can be around for checking things, unloading supplies etc i would in theory arrange a grounds work company to do the founds etc, a timber frame company to supply and erect frame, a joiner, electrician etc etc does this seem a good way of doing it?

 

thanks

Expand  

By questioning everything SSEN sent to me and understanding what it was they were proposing. Their supply map was wrong with two poles in different places. Consequently they proposed bringing the supply from a pole half way down the field next door instead of the one on my neighbours land 6m from my boundary. I spent several weeks be-friending my neighbour so that the wayleave process was easy. I also elected to keep the supply in the kiosk I’d built and SWA to the house rather than move the supply after the house was built. I also dug all the trenching myself. The final cost was just over £400 plus £100 for the electrician to connect it up at the kiosk, and another £400 for all the materials I needed (kiosk, ducting, tape, cement, bolts. 

[ETC]

  On 06/01/2023 at 13:51, Amateur bob said:

I have had a reponse from my designer hes alteted the origional design to try and get planners approval what does everyone think? Ill attach the image its all cladded in sandstone and natural slate roof, lowered in height from 2 storey etc

Expand  

 

  On 06/01/2023 at 13:51, Amateur bob said:

I have had a reponse from my designer hes alteted the origional design to try and get planners approval what does everyone think? Ill attach the image its all cladded in sandstone and natural slate roof, lowered in height from 2 storey etc

Expand  

Very poor attempt. Sorry.

[ETC]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:17, saveasteading said:

Immediate thoughts

 

The shape is efficient. perhaps not interesting.

 

The upper windows have these interesting little blips above them. So little that they may look like an error.

Higher will be more of a feature.

Or raise the eaves by that much and do away with them.   They are costing you about £1,000 extra, maybe more,  and adding joints that increase maintenance risk.

 

Vey pleased to note that the architect has allowed 3 downpipes to allow for the breaks in gutters at the windows.

 

The arches are nice. just be aware that most bricklayers can't do them.  allow £2,000 for fancy work and lintels.

Also that most window companies do not do curves. If they do it adds about £2,000 per arch compared with the equivalent rectangle.

We have arches, and have had the units made in several sections with different top slopes, and still have to work out how to finish them off.

 

without these features, the house is a simple block, so you must decide.

Expand  

The dormer windows look like something out of the 80s from a suburban housing estate and the arches are terrible.

 

I doubt very much that an architect was within a mile of this drawing.

 

I’ll take your original drawings and see what I can do. The original form is very suburban rather than rural and lowering the eaves and throwing some stone at it won’t make it fit any better into a rural landscape.

 

Get yourself a better designer - someone who has designed a house in t(e countryside.

[Buzz]

  On 06/01/2023 at 13:51, Amateur bob said:

I have had a reponse from my designer hes alteted the origional design to try and get planners approval what does everyone think? Ill attach the image its all cladded in sandstone and natural slate roof, lowered in height from 2 storey etc

Expand  

More important is what do you think of it ? 

For the record its not my cup of tea, don't get the large windows on the front of the house but maybe that's because I'm in the middle of a village not on a farm ☺️

[Kelvin]

All that matters is that you like it and that the planners accept it. As above though it doesn’t look much like a rural house nor does it look like a farm house. If they are trying to design a traditional Scottish Whitehouse cottage look then do that. The arches aren’t adding anything to the look other than complexity and cost. 

[Amateur bob]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:28, ETC said:

The dormer windows look like something out of the 80s from a suburban housing estate and the arches are terrible.

 

I doubt very much that an architect was within a mile of this drawing.

 

I’ll take your original drawings and see what I can do. The original form is very suburban rather than rural and lowering the eaves and throwing some stone at it won’t make it fit any better into a rural landscape.

 

Get yourself a better designer - someone who has designed a house in t(e countryside.

Expand  

ok i take tour points why are the arches terrible? also bearing in mind i have a tight budget does the building look cost effective to build?

[Amateur bob]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:17, saveasteading said:

Immediate thoughts

 

The shape is efficient. perhaps not interesting.

 

The upper windows have these interesting little blips above them. So little that they may look like an error.

Higher will be more of a feature.

Or raise the eaves by that much and do away with them.   They are costing you about £1,000 extra, maybe more,  and adding joints that increase maintenance risk.

 

Vey pleased to note that the architect has allowed 3 downpipes to allow for the breaks in gutters at the windows.

 

The arches are nice. just be aware that most bricklayers can't do them.  allow £2,000 for fancy work and lintels.

Also that most window companies do not do curves. If they do it adds about £2,000 per arch compared with the equivalent rectangle.

We have arches, and have had the units made in several sections with different top slopes, and still have to work out how to finish them off.

 

without these features, the house is a simple block, so you must decide.

Expand  

if sticking with this design would i be more cost effective to remove the upstairs windows and put velux windows in the roof? so thats an extra 6k for the arches but like you say the design is pretty plain without some sort of feature, overall does it look like the sort of design i could build within my 270k budget? its 180m2 all in

[Amateur bob]

  On 06/01/2023 at 14:56, Buzz said:

More important is what do you think of it ? 

For the record its not my cup of tea, don't get the large windows on the front of the house but maybe that's because I'm in the middle of a village not on a farm ☺️

Expand  

im still trying to make my mind up on it so other opinions are helpful, i think the reason for the arches is some of the traditional farm buildings round here have them do they look silly?

[saveasteading]

  On 06/01/2023 at 17:49, Amateur bob said:

do they look silly?

Expand  

I think thy look great, and are what everyone will notice. But they are very hard work, expensive and will severely limit your choice of supplier.

 

What are other houses being built like? 

 

 

OK here is my stab.

Keep the plan shape but raise the eaves height by 300 to get rid of these roof blips.

Lose the arches on cost grounds, and revert to rectangular.

 

Forget using stone as you cant afford it (the complexity and the labour).

 

That is all a bit dull now so apply a variety of wall finishes, render and wood, or wood in different directions and/or colours.

 

Slate Grey or Anthracite Metal cladding on the roof.

 

You do not need to decide on construction method yet. You can ask local builders for options.

 

The budget seems to me to be be achievable but only with expertise and hiring trades direct, not main contractors. Therefore you will be on site most of the time, and coordinating everything, and doing a lot yourself.

 

For example, my family converting the steading have paid off the joiner and are doing all the internal stud and insulation.

With my training they paid off the groundworker and did the second half of the work all themselves.  groundwork, slab, drains. but got a specialist for the poured screed.

Friends turn up and help with big events.

This was not their intention but they have learned that a lot of this is doable, with training, and the quality increases.

Plumbing/ electrics/ roofing is all still by specialists.

 

Where do you sit in this regard? Fitting it in with a day job?  Strong and practical? 

 

[Bozza]

  On 06/01/2023 at 10:55, Kelvin said:

You built a 216m² turnkey house including all fees and costs for £215k? 

Expand  

250-260 k to builder yep.  Kitchen was extra.  There was few extra bits and pieces a few grand on top of that. For site clearance.  Per my pics.

[Mr Punter]

I don't like the arches.  I think a double fronted 1 1/2 storey traditional style farmhouse would be good.

[Kelvin]

  On 06/01/2023 at 18:24, Bozza said:

250-260 k to builder yep.  Kitchen was extra.  There was few extra bits and pieces a few grand on top of that. For site clearance.  Per my pics.

Expand  

That’s about what people have paid per m² doing it much of it themselves. 

[Bozza]

@Amateur bob   I’m 99% certain if planners are asking for barn/agricultural style you won’t get PP for that.  It’s just a normal house with arches (which you can’t afford anyway) with stone (that you also can’t afford).

 

I fear you are in a cycle of wasting money with your designer. 
Take pictures of original barns and agricultural building in your area.  Post them here.  They are likely to have 45deg roofs and probably longer thinner.  That’s the shape you need.  @saveasteading is 100% right about materials etc so I would repeat what he’s saying.   
 

please stop getting your designer to design your house, especially if you are paying him.  If he knew what he was on about you’d have PP by now.

 

Don’t forget the people here advising you have successfully secured PP so we do know what we’re in about.  
 

Start again.  Post plot pics, local pics, your full circs family nee etc.  without all that our advice is largely useless.

 

 

[Amateur bob]

  On 06/01/2023 at 18:25, Mr Punter said:

I don't like the arches.  I think a double fronted 1 1/2 storey traditional style farmhouse would be good.

Expand  

its already double fronted isit not? is there ways to make this design look like a traditional style farmhouse?