New windows - huge cold spots & draughts

[Gone West]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Physically insulated or air cells?

Physically insulated.

 

[Radian]

4 hours ago, AliG said:

I just took an IR picture of it and it has made no difference. Both sides are basically the same temperature. The RHS has foam, the LHS does not.

 

The corners always fare worse as the air tends to be more stationary there but I can't help noticing an obvious cold patch at the junction between skirting and floor on the RHS Is there a gap you can fill there:

[AliG]

I tried drilling a hole in the skirting board but couldn’t get to it. I probably should have another look. There is no obvious draught.

 

The IR camera is very sensitive so that area is just 2-3C colder. There might be a gap in the foam around the edge of the slab creating a bridge.

 

I did find a gap in one room which I was able to foam up.

 

Thet room is the gym and has never had the heating on. It gets heat from the UFH manifold which is in the wardrobe and maybe the pool room next door, considering this I am amazed how warm it stays. 23C in there today and we just exercised which has pushed it up to almost 24C just from our body heat.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Gone West said:

Physically insulated.

The catalogue just shows hollow chambers.

"6 chambers and 3 seals" is the proud quote.

My special interest is that we are currently putting Rehau in. 

As we are leaving some stone exposed, this minor bridge is relatively insignificant, but it all adds up.

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, saveasteading said:

The catalogue just shows hollow chambers.

We had the windows installed in 2012. We visited the manufacturers to see the profile and a window being made. We saw the lengths of insulation for the each of the chambers which was just slid into the cavity. The insulation was optional but we wanted to have it to minimise thermal bridging. I'll see if I can find an old PDF describing the construction, but don't hold your breath, it was a long time ago. It might be worth contacting Rehau to see if it's still an option.

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, saveasteading said:

"6 chambers and 3 seals" is the proud quote.

Amazingly I found the old Rehau Geneo PDF. Page three shows the optional insulation that was available with the version ten years ago.

 

REHAU Geneo Energy Efficiency.pdf

 

 

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, Gone West said:

worth contacting Rehau to see if it's still an option

The brochures are very vague, but no mention of this option. . The windows are sitting on site anyway.

No more to be done I think.

 

[Gus Potter]

Had a chat today with a window system manufacturer.

 

Jist that I got and to distill a good bit was.. they test their windows with a "hot box". The window is fiitted into a box, they put a heater on one side and measure the temperature on the other. This lets them calculate the overall U value of the glass and frame. Dead simple and they then can develop a model for all the small and varying window sizes in between.

 

But then we started to talk about trickle vents and how much they impact on the window performance. The new regs for trickle ventilation (Scotland) are quite onerous for new build. One problem practically is that the vents break the thermal barrier between the window frame layers and this really shows up in infra red. We never got to discuss if the trickle vents get sleeved but if not I can imagine that the draft will "whizz" round the internal voids in the frame?

 

I wonder if the trickle vents can set up internal convection currents in the window frames?

 

Of course if you have a MVHR system it becomes a mute point.

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

if the trickle vents get sleeved 

The windows i have looked at, the trickle vent is a thing, plugging between frame and pane. So no link from vent to frame

[Gus Potter]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The windows i have looked at, the trickle vent is a thing, plugging between frame and pane. So no link from vent to frame

Spot on.

 

To expand on the chat I was having with the manufacturer today. They said they needed 20000m ^2 trickle ventilation on a new build . The only way to achieve this was to add a head extension to the window and fit double vents and one at the hopper.. remember window frame looses more heat than a modern argon / filmed glass unit. For a bit of fun they did a hot box test and you had massive heat loss at the vents.. but does the window need to comply with or without vents?

 

Most trickle vents in Upvc are formed by routering out the outside and inside, have yet to seen sleeved ones on the commonly installed windows .. every day is a school day.

 

The outcome was they said to the developer.. will be cheeper and more Architecturally pleasing to fit MVHR.. problem goes away until each occupant say in a block of housing wants to live their own individual life.

 

My grip is this. I do a bit of work on historic structures. I make the argument to BC that they leak air like sieves and say.. my Clients are grown up.. if the buiding gets stuffy they will open a window! If you ask for big trickle vents you need to justify why.. yes you are BC but I will challenge you on these techinical matters, in particular how to you justify the heat loss and environmental impact.. that gets them thinking. They stick to the regs but you can turn this against them at times.. by saying if you stick to this part of the regs you shoot yourself in the foot on energy conservation so "tell me what to do"

 

I wonder.. why can we not just educate the public.. if your house feels damp, you are boiling up potaoes / drying  a bit of washing inside.. open a window? My Mum does that and she is 91. If it is windy then the house will air quickly.. we need some common sense in the regs rather than this blanket prescribed approach that we need to conform to because some young polititians who are over paid for their talents decide that this is the best way to get re elected at our expense.

 

 

[Miek]

On 14/12/2022 at 12:52, AliG said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very good thermal images I must say, way better than my seekthermal ones. Just curious what a camera like that costs?

[AliG]

My brother and his wife have a flat built in the 90s.

 

They get mould on the walls I think because they close the trickle vents due to drafts and they haven’t replaced broken extractor fans.

 

My parent’s last apartment had central extraction and she kept turning it off as she didn’t like the noise(which was barely perceivable). I could tell straight away from how stuffy it was when I went in. Their new place has MVHR and I have told her in no circumstances can she switch it off otherwise I guarantee she would. I also haven’t told her how to work it so she can’t mess around with it.

This is why we have these regs.

[AliG]

6 minutes ago, Miek said:

Very good thermal images I must say, way better than my seekthermal ones. Just curious what a camera like that costs?

It is a FLIRone apro attached to my iPhone.

 

Looks like I paid £320 for an open box one. New price is over £400. I didn’t really want to spend that much but it has been very useful.

 

 

[Miek]

Cool, thanks. 

 

It looks like it uses the phones camera to add detail to the thermal image , that's a nice touch. 

[Radian]

49 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

I wonder.. why can we not just educate the public..

 

Have you never met the public? 🤣

 

But I do sympathise with your stance on trickle vents. The ones on my kitchen window are closed in this thermal image...

 

 

In case it's not clear from this image of our kitchen at 20^oC, the wooden DG window frames are at around 18^oC except for where they're being washed down with cold air from the poorly designed vents, leaving large areas at around 12^oC or less.

[MDC]

14 hours ago, AliG said:

It is a FLIRone apro attached to my iPhone.

 

Looks like I paid £320 for an open box one. New price is over £400. I didn’t really want to spend that much but it has been very useful.

 

 

Specifically, is it a FLIR 435-0006-03 ONE PRO iOS | Thermal Imaging Camera for iOS, 160 x 120 Thermal Resolution, VividIR (Lightning Connector), Neutral ??

[Roger440]

23 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Spot on.

 

To expand on the chat I was having with the manufacturer today. They said they needed 20000m ^2 trickle ventilation on a new build . The only way to achieve this was to add a head extension to the window and fit double vents and one at the hopper.. remember window frame looses more heat than a modern argon / filmed glass unit. For a bit of fun they did a hot box test and you had massive heat loss at the vents.. but does the window need to comply with or without vents?

 

Most trickle vents in Upvc are formed by routering out the outside and inside, have yet to seen sleeved ones on the commonly installed windows .. every day is a school day.

 

The outcome was they said to the developer.. will be cheeper and more Architecturally pleasing to fit MVHR.. problem goes away until each occupant say in a block of housing wants to live their own individual life.

 

My grip is this. I do a bit of work on historic structures. I make the argument to BC that they leak air like sieves and say.. my Clients are grown up.. if the buiding gets stuffy they will open a window! If you ask for big trickle vents you need to justify why.. yes you are BC but I will challenge you on these techinical matters, in particular how to you justify the heat loss and environmental impact.. that gets them thinking. They stick to the regs but you can turn this against them at times.. by saying if you stick to this part of the regs you shoot yourself in the foot on energy conservation so "tell me what to do"

 

I wonder.. why can we not just educate the public.. if your house feels damp, you are boiling up potaoes / drying  a bit of washing inside.. open a window? My Mum does that and she is 91. If it is windy then the house will air quickly.. we need some common sense in the regs rather than this blanket prescribed approach that we need to conform to because some young polititians who are over paid for their talents decide that this is the best way to get re elected at our expense.

 

 

 

Having had the dubious privilege of being a landlord, id say 90% of people wouldnt know if there house was damp or high humidity from feel. 

 

Only answer is a humidity meter. Nothing else will ever work. Even that woint woirk for a good number.

 

Or as a landlord, fit a PIV, and hide the switch.

[Radian]

2 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Having had the dubious privilege of being a landlord, id say 90% of people wouldnt know if there house was damp or high humidity from feel. 

 

Except for when they send you a photo of water literally running down the walls asking if you'll come and fix the leak 🙄

Seriously.

[Roger440]

3 minutes ago, Radian said:

Except for when they send you a photo of water literally running down the walls asking if you'll come and fix the leak 🙄

Seriously.

 

I believe it. Not that surprising TBH.

 

One of the things with this forum is that its so far removed from real life for many. People on here are, by the very fact they are here, interested in these things. Want to understand, ask questions and educate themselves. The average man on the street just isnt interested and doesnt understand  even a lot of the most basic stuff about buildings. 

[Radian]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

One of the things with this forum is that its so far removed from real life for many. People on here are, by the very fact they are here, interested in these things. Want to understand, ask questions and educate themselves. The average man on the street just isnt interested and doesnt understand  even a lot of the most basic stuff about buildings. 

 

Just about everyone lives in a house for the most part of their lives. Building science should be in the curriculum IMO. It's a great practical application for some maths and physics that would therefore actually be of benefit to everyone.