Advice re Chapel new build

[lakelandfolk]

Early days, but before we meet with the Architect to complete the pre-app and discuss our ideas, we would appreciate some advice from you technical wizards. We are hoping to build a new Methodist Chapel, timber frame with high levels of insulation to achieve a net zero building. We have done a simple line sketch of a building that would be fit for purpose, a basic "shoe box" shape circa 26m x 13m which would include a large 30 degree pitched roof SSW facing. There will be a kitchen with the normal appliances and we are minded to install ASHP + UFH. We think the SSW facing roof would accommodate about 40 solar PV panels.  1. Would there be sufficient solar generation to run the Chapel off grid? 

2. Additional panels could be fitted to the NNE roof if appropriate and viable.  3. Would such a large solar PV system need to be connected to 3 phase?           4. What are the implications of going for 3 phase, ie availability, installation cost etc?

 

[SteamyTea]

This sounds like an interesting project.

Net Zero is an odd concept, pretty meaningless as well because it just relies on accounting i.e. self generation, at any time = usage, at any time.

It is the 'at any time' that is the problem.  I could make my small house net zero by just closing it up and moving out.

So, in my opinion, the first thing you need to do is work out the weekly occupancy of the place i.e. how often is it open and needs to be usable.

From that an energy profile can be established.  It will not be 100% accurate, but even if it is within 20%, it is something to work to.

When the building is in use, the power requirements will be quite high, when it is not in use, they should be close to zero.  Most of the time the building will be empty I suspect (the large Methodist Chapel near me is very underused and has an all or nothing heating system).

So while adding additional insulation (better than commercial building regs) may help if constantly heating, it may not be the best usage of the cash you have to spend.

A fast acting heating system may be best, this is usually forced air i.e. change the cold air to warmed air, rapidly.  The problem with this is that it tends to be noisy, and a Chapel should be quiet (my Quaker background wants it silent and no echo/reverb).  It should be possible to have a system designed that is suitable, and the heat source can be whatever you like, as long as it is outside the building.

PV is always worth fitting, especially in an underused building, the excess generation benefits everyone, not just the congregation.

Now you ideally want excess generation all year round, but this is problematic in the winter.  A 30° roof angle is less than idea, you really want the modules hanging off the SSW walls as they are then at a better 'winter' angle.  Forget the NNE side, modules will be just expensive cladding.

Ideally you will need some sort of energy storage to run the lighting, kitchen, ventilation, and the organ (get an electronic one and make some fake pipes).

Some heating could be done by storing in a large concrete slab, but that means you are heating 24/7, which may not be optimal (depends on your initial energy profile).  You could also store excess PV generation is a large water cylinder, then, when the building is going to be occupied, release that energy though a forced air heating system.  Any stored hot water can be heating by any method i.e. gas, oil, solid fuel, PV, GSHP/ASHP, or a combination of any of them.  It really depends on that energy profile.

 

Other things to look into are any electrical equipment needs to have zero power draw when no being used.  So don't go over board on the technology, a small kitchen can have a basic induction hob and an oven (usually larger than needed, commercial ovens are pretty basic inside), empty any fridge and switch it off when not needed (food will generally come in cold so will help cool the fridge anyway).

Think about lighting very carefully.

Single Phase or 3 Phase is really down to the expected maximum load, design it for Single Phase i.e. 100A maximum (23 kW).  Then if close to that, get 3 Phase.  Be careful how any PV is wired into it though, the Community Centre in Redruth has the PV wired into the two lightly used phases, while the more heavily used one has nothing (was a pre FiTs system, so totally useless).

 

You will probably struggle to find an Architect that will understand the problems of spasmodically used, low energy, novel buildings that need to be off grid (even if connected to the grid).

Use an off grid mentality when designing it.

So to push the point one more time, work out what it needs energy wise, and when it needs it, then work on ways to reduce it, then look at ways to generate and store it.  Not the other way around.

 

You could end up with a very architecturally interesting building that need not cost any more to build than a basic building.

Edited November 27, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Iceverge]

What an interesting project. I'm guessing it's circa 300m2 internally so not drastically different from a large house. 

 

I second the notion of rapid response heating. If UFH you'll be best to do it in as thin a screed as possible with closely spaced pipes.

 

However I think a multi split air to air unit would be more than sufficient. A good brand should be near silent as well as keeping the building cool in hot weather. 

 

Aim for excellent airtightness and install an on demand MVHR unit and the building will never get too cold. 

 

For the kitchen an undersink water heater on a timer would be economical. 

 

Given the intermittent occupation and very low water demand almost all solar power will go unused if off grid. 

 

I would completely isolate the ideas of power generation and usage because unlike an office or house there'll be tiny overlap. 

 

If aiming for the lowest environmental impact using materials with low embodied energy is important. If you build just from things that used to be plants you won't go far wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Yes interesting project.  It would make a change for such a building to be something other than a very cold impossible to heat stone building.

 

Net zero is easy.  Any house with enough roof space could fit enough PV to generate in a year more than the building uses.  It would NOT mean zero bills or off grid because most generation would be in the summer so you would be exporting and most usage would be in winter and you would be importing.

[lakelandfolk]

Fantastic, what a lot of useful information, might take a little time to digest but very helpful. The worship space we are suggesting would be about 165m2 with vaulted or semi vaulted ceiling. There would be 37 linear metres of wall space suitable for radiators, would that provide sufficient effective radiators to heat the room from an ASHP?   Yes, the existing Victorian, solid brick Chapel is is a nightmare to maintain, and we are for ever calling on the heating engineer to fix the boiler. The Chapel was constructed in a time when there was a membership of 200/300 now we are down to about 40 and outgoing funds far exceed income. We feel the sale of this large building and parking space, along with some potential grants, would possibly cover the cost of the new build. The sketch design we intend to present to the Architect includes two meeting rooms for community use, hire, meetings, craft activities, training, coffee room, etc etc. We feel that by offering a fresh, warm welcoming ambience suitable for worship, Sunday school, meeting/function rooms, suitable for community activities, that we would provide a very low carbon building fit for purpose/use by several future generations. The village does not have a village hall so we would hope to create a community hub as well as a Methodist Chapel. I feel it is our responsibility, as the senior generation, to try and mitigate some of the damage we have inflicted on our precious planet and this unique opportunity is a way of doing that. Unfortunately some people can not look forward and are locked in the past so our small supportive group here in the village have some persuading to do to convince the powers that be that a low carbon, sustainable building is the future. This land was bequeathed by a local member for local use, but not sure the powers to be see it that way.

    I can see that 3phase and off grid are probably not the way forward. What is an multi split air to air system, who supplies those?                                                                                  Sutton lane site plan 2 (1).pdf

[SteamyTea]

32 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

The village does not have a village hall so we would hope to create a community hub as well as a Methodist Chapel

This changes the usage ratio somewhat, but also the income potential. Because of that the heating system may be better being on constantly and take advantage of UFH in a large concrete slab.  As buildings get larger, they tend to have a smaller exposed surface area to volume ratio, so in effect, use less energy per square meter of floor area.  Having said that, overall usage is the important bit.  Having a thermal load of 20 W/m² may sound impressive, but if you are heating a 500m² building, it is not as good as 30W/m² for 300m².

 

You seem to have focused on the inside space, but do you want it to look like a Methodist Chapel, or a generic village hall, or worse, fit in with the local vernacular?

Most Methodist Chapels down here have a very grand frontage, then 'tin shed' built behind then.

If you want to take advantage of PV, and I think you should, most of the front should become PV modules, that will make a really big statement.

Just make sure the Cross does not cast a shadow.  So avoid porches, trees and street lamps/telegraph poles that could cast shadows as well.

 

3 Chapels in a town in I avoid.

 

 

 

 

OK, that last one has become a community hub.

Edited November 28, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Adrian Walker]

22 hours ago, lakelandfolk said:

Early days, but before we meet with the Architect to complete the pre-app and discuss our ideas, we would appreciate some advice from you technical wizards. We are hoping to build a new Methodist Chapel, timber frame with high levels of insulation to achieve a net zero building. We have done a simple line sketch of a building that would be fit for purpose, a basic "shoe box" shape circa 26m x 13m which would include a large 30 degree pitched roof SSW facing. There will be a kitchen with the normal appliances and we are minded to install ASHP + UFH. We think the SSW facing roof would accommodate about 40 solar PV panels.  1. Would there be sufficient solar generation to run the Chapel off grid? 

2. Additional panels could be fitted to the NNE roof if appropriate and viable.  3. Would such a large solar PV system need to be connected to 3 phase?           4. What are the implications of going for 3 phase, ie availability, installation cost etc?

 

 

 

It sound like you want to build a to Passive House Standards, check that your architect has experience in building to PH Standard.  Far too many architects are more concerned on how it looks than energy and comfort IMHO.  When not in use this would make a great community EV charging station and would generate you some welcome funds.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Adrian Walker

[lakelandfolk]

EV chargers? that's a good idea I know Instavolt are happy to install in our area. You are right about Architects, we would like to achieve something near PH and were thinking of approaching someone like MCB to supply and erect the shell. 

[SteamyTea]

31 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

EV chargers? that's a good idea I know Instavolt are happy to install in our area.

Check your charitable status, easy to get caught out.

[Adrian Walker]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Check your charitable status, easy to get caught out.

 

Agreed, you don't want to be charged business rates for a row of EV chargers.

[Gus Potter]

On 27/11/2022 at 15:48, lakelandfolk said:

Early days, but before we meet with the Architect to complete the pre-app and discuss our ideas, we would appreciate some advice from you technical wizards. We are hoping to build a new Methodist Chapel, timber frame with high levels of insulation to achieve a net zero building. We have done a simple line sketch of a building that would be fit for purpose, a basic "shoe box" shape circa 26m x 13m which would include a large 30 degree pitched roof SSW facing. There will be a kitchen with the normal appliances and we are minded to install ASHP + UFH. We think the SSW facing roof would accommodate about 40 solar PV panels.  1. Would there be sufficient solar generation to run the Chapel off grid? 

2. Additional panels could be fitted to the NNE roof if appropriate and viable.  3. Would such a large solar PV system need to be connected to 3 phase?           4. What are the implications of going for 3 phase, ie availability, installation cost etc?

Pile in folks, lots of folk on BH will be happy to help.

 

To get the best out of this then it all starts in the ground and you work your way up from there.

 

If you can post more info then will be happy to chip in with what I know as I'm sure others will.

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

10 hours ago, lakelandfolk said:

What is an multi split air to air system, who supplies those?         

 

They're heat pumps but only heat the air directly rather than water, sometimes called A2A on here. 

 

They're fast response, cheap, offer excellent heating and cooling performance if you pick the right model. 

 

Where space heating is the bulk of the energy requirement they make a lot of sense. They're in almost every commercially building. 

 

 

 

The cardboard cathedral in Christchurch NZ I quite liked. Made from cardboard tubes and double walled polycarbonate post the earthquake. 

 

I second the call for a proper "passivhaus"professional. Otherwise you may struggle to keep overheating etc under wraps. 

 

With Sustainability in mind I had 2 thoughts.

 

1. A safe secure and dry bike storage area.

2. An area for breast feeding, nappy changing and kids + parents. 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, Iceverge said:

2. An area for breast feeding, nappy changing and kids + parents. 

That is a McDonald isn't it? 

[lakelandfolk]

Many, many thanks every one, so kind of you to take the time to offer such good advice based on your experience and expertise.                              I mentioned at the start of this thread that it is early days, and we are a small group of forward looking, active members who can see this opportunity for what it is. The Chapel membership is in rapid decline, about 30+ members, 92% are over 70 and 50% of those are 80+ but some of us don't want to see closure.  We have decided that we need to push from the bottom, try to persuade our fellow members to think of their grand children and grandchildren, and the Methodist central office not to cash in this asset and disperse it to national mission projects. The person who bequeathed the land did so for the benefit of our Chapel members.  If we were to achieve our objective then we would create a sustainable facility with a less intimidating church environment,  which would attract more of the younger community and benefit several generations to come.

I would like to compile some ball park figures for the project to support our case but the timber frame companies I have contacted so far require Architects drawings before they can quote. My quickly scribbled sketch is not suitable.

I will post again if/when I have any news, and will almost certainly looking for more advice.