YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

14 hours ago, joth said:

The browns and blues are arrayed either side in non-interconnected blocks.

qq @joth (although i think i know the answer) is the reason the brown and brown/white cables are on separate terminal blocks because the 'pairs' on each level of the teminal block are connected together? therefore you can only have a cable of the same 'colour' on one level? so you can't put brown AND brown/white on the same level pair?

[Thorfun]

10 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Use 4 of the 8 level blue terminal blocks for Tree (x2), +24v and GND

would you not use an interconnected block for these like @joth has? i would've thought you just want to basically connect ALL the tree connections together and then a single feed to the tree extension?

[Thorfun]

On 05/11/2023 at 18:37, Kelvin said:

Yep. They are quite deep though so I had a few places where they didn’t fit without some ‘adjustment’ 😉 

 

On 06/11/2023 at 16:46, Dan F said:

They don't need to be round, rather European back boxes are round so that is what Loxone use in most videos and supply.  We used round and found them easier (once you buy a 68mm hole saw).

 

morning. either of you know if these Appleby round back boxes can be used instead of the Loxone ones?

 

https://www.electrical2go.co.uk/appleby-circular-dry-lining-box-35mm-sb639.html

 

they're only 35mm deep which is all I've room for in some places. (25mm service cavity and 15mm plasterboard&skim).

[joth]

52 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

qq @joth (although i think i know the answer) is the reason the brown and brown/white cables are on separate terminal blocks because the 'pairs' on each level of the teminal block are connected together?

Correct. The non interconnected block actually have 4 interconnected terminals per signal, 2 facing down and 2 facing up. In most cases you use just 2 of them, the spares are mostly useful if daisy chaining a signal (like Rob does with Tree and power lines. Which mostly comes down to personal preference, if you have the space for it )

 

 

[joth]

33 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

 

morning. either of you know if these Appleby round back boxes can be used instead of the Loxone ones?

 

https://www.electrical2go.co.uk/appleby-circular-dry-lining-box-35mm-sb639.html

 

they're only 35mm deep which is all I've room for in some places. (25mm service cavity and 15mm plasterboard&skim).

They look worryingly like UK boxes in round rather than the characteristic EU look, I'd worry about the screw hole centers being wrong. 

 

Try https://knxshoponline.co.uk/e135-o60mm-extra-shallow-only-35mm-deep/

 

They have a pretty good range to chose from

 

[Thorfun]

54 minutes ago, joth said:

Correct. The non interconnected block actually have 4 interconnected terminals per signal, 2 facing down and 2 facing up. In most cases you use just 2 of them, the spares are mostly useful if daisy chaining a signal (like Rob does with Tree and power lines. Which mostly comes down to personal preference, if you have the space for it )

 

 

so you would put, for example, each Green wire in one side of the pair on each level and then a small jumper cable on the other side of the pair from L1 -> L2 -> L3 -> L4 etc to join the levels together?

[joth]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

so you would put, for example, each Green wire in one side of the pair on each level and then a small jumper cable on the other side of the pair from L1 -> L2 -> L3 -> L4 etc to join the levels together?

Yes, but you'd have 2 jumpers in each block, one incoming from the prior block, one out going to the next. 

I used this scheme when I have random CAt6 each with slightly different things going on (often for outside and out buildings, or heating controls etc). When I have >8 CAT6 with a consistent assignment then using interconnected blocks comes into its own. (E.g. for light switches and room sensors, each room being another line)

Edited November 24, 2023 by joth

[Rob99]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

out of interest, why do you choose Wago over the Weidmuller that Loxone supply?

Can't honestly remember now why I chose Wago, possibly they had a better range at the time for what I needed. Since then have had no reason to change so guess its a personal preference now. I know some people use Weidmuller and some Phoenix Contact.

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

would you not use an interconnected block for these like @joth has? i would've thought you just want to basically connect ALL the tree connections together and then a single feed to the tree extension?

Yes, should have said Grey interconnected terminal blocks not Blue (it was quite late!!!)

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

Can't honestly remember now why I chose Wago, possibly they had a better range at the time for what I needed. Since then have had no reason to change so guess its a personal preference now. I know some people use Weidmuller and some Phoenix Contact.

Yes, should have said Grey interconnected terminal blocks not Blue (it was quite late!!!)

thanks and makes sense now. 🙂 

[Kelvin]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

 

morning. either of you know if these Appleby round back boxes can be used instead of the Loxone ones?

 

https://www.electrical2go.co.uk/appleby-circular-dry-lining-box-35mm-sb639.html

 

they're only 35mm deep which is all I've room for in some places. (25mm service cavity and 15mm plasterboard&skim).

The screw hole centres are at 60mm on the loxone boxes which I think is the same for single gang UK square boxes so you’d need to check that.  They need to be mounted slightly offset to secure the mounting bracket though.
 

Before anyone says it’s not level, it is it’s just my dodgy photography  😂 

 

[Thorfun]

question out of curiosity really......

 

anyone know what the letters at the end of the Weidmuller terminal blocks naming convention mean? 

 

this one is PRV 8 BL 35X7.5 WS/RT

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=F490E224509C0D79B55273816DE92EB4?productId=([1173910000])&page=Product

 

whereas this one is PRV 8 BL 35X7.5 RT/WS

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=F490E224509C0D79B55273816DE92EB4?productId=([1267840000])&page=Product

 

what's the difference? why is the RT and WS swapped around and what does that mean?

[dpmiller]

colours- red/white vs white/red

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

colours- red/white vs white/red

lol. Thanks. Can’t believe it’s as simple as that! Obviously it makes all the difference as to which I buy then! 😂

[Dan F]

1 minute ago, Thorfun said:

lol. Thanks. Can’t believe it’s as simple as that! Obviously it makes all the difference as to which I buy then! 😂

 

If you are doing Weidmuller, get the configurator and design your terminal block row in there before buying all the bits: 

- Helps ensure it fits.

- Creates a part list you can then use for sourcing the bits.

- You can be sure you are getting the right cross-connectors for the different terminal blocks.

- If you want to label blocks, it will help you find which are the correct labels for each terminal block.

- Great for documentation, as you can add a text comment on each block and then export to pdf/print or even stick it on the inside of your cabinet door!

 

https://www.weidmueller.com/int/solutions/weidmueller_configurator/index.jsp

[Thorfun]

20 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

If you are doing Weidmuller, get the configurator and design your terminal block row in there before buying all the bits: 

- Helps ensure it fits.

- Creates a part list you can then use for sourcing the bits.

- You can be sure you are getting the right cross-connectors for the different terminal blocks.

- If you want to label blocks, it will help you find which are the correct labels for each terminal block.

- Great for documentation, as you can add a text comment on each block and then export to pdf/print or even stick it on the inside of your cabinet door!

 

https://www.weidmueller.com/int/solutions/weidmueller_configurator/index.jsp

ahh...it's Windows only. if I can manage to find the time to get a Windows VM running on my Mac I'll download it and give it a go.

[Thorfun]

evening all. working through the plan of cabinet and have a quick question. how do I go about terminating a 5-core cable that will be used for a 3-circuit track light? would I use a terminal block that has the 5 connectors (L1, L2, L3, N and Earth) or use the standard terminal block that has LNE and common across the neutrals and earths or each block?

 

I guess I have a similar question for the RGBW led lights! I've run 5-core cable from the cabinet. should I just get 5-way terminal blocks? 

[Thorfun]

I also have CCT LED lights with 4-core cable. what terminal blocks would I use for that one? is that the AMC 2.5 ones on the Loxone website that are for blinds and motors?

[Thorfun]

35 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I also have CCT LED lights with 4-core cable. what terminal blocks would I use for that one? is that the AMC 2.5 ones on the Loxone website that are for blinds and motors?

so I think I've answered my own question on this one. even though I've run 3-core and Earth cable I only actually need 3-cores for CCT Leds as 24V leds don't need to be earthed, right? so by using the AMC 2.5 terminal blocks I can use warm white, cold white and 24V+ and just ignore the earth connector.

[Thorfun]

On 23/11/2023 at 14:23, joth said:

For 5 core I normally use 2x 2 layer.

 

I should probably re-read my own thread more often! that answers the question for RGBW LED strips. 🤦‍♂️

but can someone let me know if it's ok to jumper across terminal blocks for the 3 circuit track lighting? 

 

I see it something like this on the external side:

 

TB1     TB2    TB3

  L1       L2       L3

 

  N ---- N ---- N

 

  E ---- E ----- E

 

and then on the internal side I connect a relay output to each of TB1, TB2 and TB3 to allow individual control of each circuit on the track.

 

I just don't know if it's allowed to jumper the Neutral between the terminal blocks. obviously the Earth is common across the everything, right?

 

On 23/11/2023 at 14:23, joth said:

Yes. Assuming you have switched live then use busbars to common across all the neutrals.

 

so, once again I read further up (what an idiot!) and @joth has mentioned using the busbars to common across the neutrals so I guess it's ok. I was thinking of using the tri-rated cable to jumper across but the busbars seem much safer I guess.

 

On 23/11/2023 at 18:23, Dan F said:

Terminal blocks without earth could be used for 24v applications though (e.g. lighting).

qq on this one. what do you do with the earth wire on the T&E when using for 24V and using a terminal block without an earth? do you just cut it off? or put a Wago block on the end to ensure nothing touches it?

 

I will make sure I re-read the whole thread again as I obviously forget stuff that has been written before. sorry about that! I have a million things going around my head with everything still to be done on the build.

[Dan F]

15 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I just don't know if it's allowed to jumper the Neutral between the terminal blocks. obviously the Earth is common across the everything, right?

 

You can common the neutrals if they are all on the same RCBO.  If on different RCBOs, best (or need) to keep separate.

 

The earth you don't need to common if you are using the blocks that earth via the rail.

 

Wedmulled call then "cross-connectors", rather than busbars because technically they aren't a solid busbar, but use these to common across terminal blocks.  Just make sure you get the right ones, as there are various different types and if you get the wrong one (like I did) can be a couple of mm too short and give a bad connection.

 

15 hours ago, Thorfun said:

qq on this one. what do you do with the earth wire on the T&E when using for 24V and using a terminal block without an earth? do you just cut it off? or put a Wago block on the end to ensure nothing touches it?

 

We just cut it off I think.

 

Did you get all the blocks and have started cabinet building? Were you able to design it on the Weidmuller software?

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, Dan F said:

You can common the neutrals if they are all on the same RCBO.  If on different RCBOs, best (or need) to keep separate.

 

The earth you don't need to common if you are using the blocks that earth via the rail.

 

Wedmulled call then "cross-connectors", rather than busbars because technically they aren't a solid busbar, but use these to common across terminal blocks.  Just make sure you get the right ones, as there are various different types and if you get the wrong one (like I did) can be a couple of mm too short and give a bad connection.

awesome. the track light will be on the same RCBO from the CU so no worries there then. thanks for the advice on the correct cross-connectors!

 

12 minutes ago, Dan F said:

We just cut it off I think.

cheers. will double check with my sparky before i do so just in case he wants them terminated somewhere.

 

12 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Did you get all the blocks and have started cabinet building? Were you able to design it on the Weidmuller software?

not yet! got a load of tri-rated cable and stuff ready to get going. just going through a spreadsheet to figure out how many terminal blocks i need and of what type before searching for the best price and making the purchase. i have a couple of weeks off in the New Year so am hoping to get second fix electrics and the Loxone cabinet sorted at that time so will be purchasing soon to ensure i get delivery before Christmas.

 

Haven't got around to configuring a Windows VM yet so not used the Weidmuller software. not sure i'll have time to tbh so will figure it out in a spreadsheet! 🤣

[Dan F]

4 hours ago, Thorfun said:

awesome. the track light will be on the same RCBO from the CU so no worries there then

 

The way I have my cabinet is that there is a single feed from CU to Loxone cabinet, and then on the bottom rail I have all the RCBOs for the 230v circuits used within the cabinet.

- Loxone/DALI PSU's

- Blinds

- UFH
- Multiple RCBO's for lighting.   (there is a maximum number of Meanwell drivers recommended per RCBO, also I have LEDs, downlighters and external lighting separate)

 

If you don't do this then either you have a lot of 230v cable going between CU and Loxone cabinet, or you may not be segregating things enough.  There may also be some regulations to consider, but not an expert on these 🙂

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

 

The way I have my cabinet is that there is a single feed from CU to Loxone cabinet, and then on the bottom rail I have all the RCBOs for the 230v circuits used within the cabinet.

- Loxone/DALI PSU's

- Blinds

- UFH
- Multiple RCBO's for lighting.   (there is a maximum number of Meanwell drivers recommended per RCBO, also I have LEDs, downlighters and external lighting separate)

 

If you don't do this then either you have a lot of 230v cable going between CU and Loxone cabinet, or you may not be segregating things enough.  There may also be some regulations to consider, but not an expert on these 🙂

 

I was thinking of doing it your way but my CU is right next to the Loxone cabinet and it is a big CU with lots of ways (18 + 20 https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4780675-18-20-dual-row-100a-isolator-incomer-metal-clad-consumer-unit-with-type-2-spd) and so I figure I have the space in the CU and my sparky was ok with that too. I will, of course, double check with him again about the best way to do it all.

 

for my 24V stuff I have the Loxone PSUB which is rather large and takes up a large portion of the bottom row in the cabinet so there's not a huge amount of room left for RCBOs. Once I've drawn up my cabinet layout I'll post it up for comment/criticism.

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I was thinking of doing it your way but my CU is right next to the Loxone cabinet and it is a big CU with lots of ways (18 + 20 https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4780675-18-20-dual-row-100a-isolator-incomer-metal-clad-consumer-unit-with-type-2-spd) and so I figure I have the space in the CU and my sparky was ok with that too. I will, of course, double check with him again about the best way to do it all.

 

for my 24V stuff I have the Loxone PSUB which is rather large and takes up a large portion of the bottom row in the cabinet so there's not a huge amount of room left for RCBOs. Once I've drawn up my cabinet layout I'll post it up for comment/criticism.

 

Mine has 36 ways (three phases) and is next to the Loxone panel too. Yeah, check with him on the regs.  BTW, like the fact that CU comes with SPD already.. will that go before any battery system you plan to/might install?

 

I like the fact there is a single isolation point in the CU which I can flip and be sure that the panel is safe to work on, rather than having to flip n different breakers (where n might increase over time during the install).  I don't know if this is a regs thing though, or just personal preference. Be interesting to see how others have done this and if regs have anything to say about this.   I have a Contactum MCB and 7-8 RCBO's on the bottom rail.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

Mine has 36 ways (three phases) and is next to the Loxone panel too. Yeah, check with him on the regs.  BTW, like the fact that CU comes with SPD already.. will that go before any battery system you plan to/might install?

the battery system is already installed. not sure where it sits in relation to the surge protection though tbh! my sparky just wired it up for me and it seems to work! 🤣 but the batteries are on the house side of the CU. if you're interested I can try and map it out but it wouldn't be until the weekend as the day job keeps getting in the way of things.

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

I like the fact there is a single isolation point in the CU which I can flip and be sure that the panel is safe to work on, rather than having to flip n different breakers (where n might increase over time during the install).

this is the single most compelling argument to do it that way! what size RCBO do you have feeding the Loxone cabinet? I presume it needs to be quite beefy? maybe 2 x smaller ones might be a good way to go so that only half the cabinet will fail if one of the CU RCBO trips?

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

I don't know if this is a regs thing though, or just personal preference. Be interesting to see how others have done this and if regs have anything to say about this.

@Rob99? how do you do your customer's setups? I'm pretty sure I remember from @joth's photos that he also has RCBOs in the Loxone cabinet. @jack? how's yours done?

 

anyone else care to comment? I only tagged the above as they're in the top posters in this topic 😉