YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

ok. I think I've made a decision as to what to do with the primary deciding factor being I have very little money left to finish the house! as such I am going to takes @joth's suggestion and purchase something like the 18-way version of this to house the audio server and stereo extensions.

 

then I will need to purchase a new WW mains dimmer and a Loxone relay to finish the circuits of the main house. that will leave me with a potential 11 230V circuits and 8 x 24V LED strips to run the basement. which won't be enough but I can position another relay on the bottom rail which will add 14 relays which will be enough to run the basement. in order to leave that expansion space on the bottom row I will need to run individual RCBOs in the CU rather than a single cable from the CU and house them in the LXN-5. that means more cable from the CU to the LXN-5 but I can live with that and will put it in some trunking. it doesn't leave me with much expansion room tbh but it should be enough to finish the house and then, when/if I ever have any money again, I can see if I want to add an expansion cabinet below to create more space within the enclosures.

 

with that in mind, below is my proposed layout. Relay #4 will not exist for a while and is the space for future expansion of the basement circuits. it's not ideal but it is an inexpensive way of getting it operational.

 

 

 

happy to receive feedback.

[Dan F]

  On 19/12/2023 at 13:28, Thorfun said:

I think I just have too many circuits, especially when I think about trying to light up the basement so all the termination on the top rail really isn't possible I think! my spreadsheet is currently showing 77 x 230V terminal blocks and 24 x 24V terminal blocks. then with the  11 x 8-way blocks that is a total width of 626.4mm. The din rails are only 550mm wide. and then I haven't even got to the basement circuits yet.

 

I'd also rather keep all the Loxone stuff in the one comms room and it's way too late in the day now to try and start running cables elsewhere. I will go and have a good measure up down there in the comms room and see what I can fit in but it's pretty tight in there with my CU, batteries, LXN cabinet and 800mm x 600mm data cabinet! luckily I have pretty high ceilings so should be able to fit the LXN5 with a.n.other cabinet below whether that's a LXN3 or the LXN-2RE I'm not sure yet.

 

I have the power supply and backup from Loxone for my power requirements which 'should' suffice so don't really need the deep cabinet.

 

in hindsight I'd have made the comms room bigger 🤦‍♂️

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Batteries/inverter not elsewhere wherever you have electrical meter and any PV?

[Dan F]

  On 19/12/2023 at 15:43, Thorfun said:

ok. I think I've made a decision as to what to do with the primary deciding factor being I have very little money left to finish the house! as such I am going to takes @joth's suggestion and purchase something like the 18-way version of this to house the audio server and stereo extensions.

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Yet another option is to put loxone audio in your rack.  I have a tall Middle Atlantic 20" deep network rack.  There isn't much in this rack currently but I have

- Bottom half set up as shelving.

- Unifi router/switch/patch panel.

- Loxone audio at the top (mounted on one of these https://www.network-cabs.co.uk/product/ad-tek-products-1u-19-inch-rack-mount-din-rail-panel-bracket-with-cover-406)

 

Works quite well, and saved adding an additional "box/panel/cabinet"

Edited December 19, 2023 by Dan F
spelling

[Thorfun]

  On 19/12/2023 at 18:45, Dan F said:

Batteries/inverter not elsewhere wherever you have electrical meter and any PV?

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PV inverter is in the loft and feeds down to the CU/batteries in the comms room. I had a long discussion with folk on here about where to site my batteries and, for me, the basement in the comms room was the most obvious position. Again, way too late for me to think about relocating them just to put another Loxone cabinet in when I could find another solution for the Loxone system.

 

I do have 2.5m height to play with but that is from the floor so I could easily fit a LXN-2RE in under the LXN5 should I need it. could probably fit an LXN4 depending on regulations on the unit being a certain height etc.

 

at the moment, it's just funds that are low and I just need to get it working so we can move in. 

[Thorfun]

  On 19/12/2023 at 18:55, Dan F said:

 

Yet another option is to put loxone audio in your rack.  I have a tall Middle Atlantic 20" deep network rack.  There isn't much in this rack currently but I have

- Bottom half set up as shelving.

- Unifi router/switch/patch panel.

- Loxone audio at the top (mounted on one of these https://www.network-cabs.co.uk/product/ad-tek-products-1u-19-inch-rack-mount-din-rail-panel-bracket-with-cover-406)

 

Works quite well, and saved adding and additional "box/panel/cabinet"

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I did think about this as it's a 36U rack so I have plenty of space. also running the speaker cables to the network rack would allow me to move away from the Loxone audio server in the future should I wish to. I could also put the amp for the cinema in the rack too.

 

thank you so much for that link. I will definitely consider it especially as it's the same price as that cheapo enclosure I found and would be a neater solution I think.

[Thorfun]

on to another question (yes yes, I know, I'm full of them 😉 ). I need another Loxone Relay Extension. but at £330+VAT for 14 relays it's a large cost to swallow at this stage of my build. 

 

anyone have any other alternatives I could use to switch mains voltage lights? preferably not something that's going to blow up and that isn't too power hungry or noisy when not in use.

 

would this be suitable?

[joth]

  On 19/12/2023 at 19:07, Thorfun said:

on to another question (yes yes, I know, I'm full of them 😉 ). I need another Loxone Relay Extension. but at £330+VAT for 14 relays it's a large cost to swallow at this stage of my build. 

 

anyone have any other alternatives I could use to switch mains voltage lights? preferably not something that's going to blow up and that isn't too power hungry or noisy when not in use.

 

would this be suitable?

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What are you using for 24V led strips? Do how many channels do you have spare on it?

Use that to drive 24V coil mains relays, or even better SSRs (good for most loads, so long as not tiny wattage)

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by joth

[jack]

  On 19/12/2023 at 19:07, Thorfun said:

on to another question (yes yes, I know, I'm full of them 😉 ). I need another Loxone Relay Extension. but at £330+VAT for 14 relays it's a large cost to swallow at this stage of my build. 

 

anyone have any other alternatives I could use to switch mains voltage lights? preferably not something that's going to blow up and that isn't too power hungry or noisy when not in use.

 

would this be suitable?

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That sort of thing should be fine.

 

If I were starting again I'd use a lot more non-Loxone components, especially DMX relays.

 

They're very cheap per channel and DMX is reliable when set up properly, especially where you're just using it for switching.

 

 

[Thorfun]

  On 19/12/2023 at 19:13, joth said:

What are you using for 24V led strips? Do how many channels do you have spare on it?

Use that to drive 24V coil mains relays, or even better SSRs (good for most loads, so long as not tiny wattage)

 

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I have a Whitewing 48 channel DMX RGBW dimmer for 24V led strips. currently have 8 channels spare. I did ask Mike from Whitewing and he suggested something like this could be used on one of his dimmer outputs. is that what you mean by a 24V coil mains relay? I don't know what an SSR is but I will Google it tomorrow.

 

problem is I need an additional 18 relays for the house and then whatever the basement needs after that. I was going to leave the 8 channels on the WW 24V dimmer for the basement led strips when they come along so didn't want to use those up if I didn't have to.

 

I could get 3 of those DMX relays I linked from Amazon. that'll cost me less than half the cost of a Loxone relay and give me more relays.

 

I know you bought stuff from China for your setup but I remember you saying that they were noisy and a little unreliable?

[joth]

SSR is solid state relay. Quieter and faster switching than a mechanical relay.

 

I use these.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html

 

Perfect for switched live 230V devices. I have them for lights, pumps, UFH mats, towel rads. Just not use for anything that needs a "dry contact" input. 

 

The boards you linked from Amazon work fine, I have a couple, just a bit annoying to mount in a din rail enclosure 

[Thorfun]

  On 19/12/2023 at 21:23, joth said:

SSR is solid state relay. Quieter and faster switching than a mechanical relay.

 

I use these.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html

 

Perfect for switched live 230V devices. I have them for lights, pumps, UFH mats, towel rads. Just not use for anything that needs a "dry contact" input. 

 

The boards you linked from Amazon work fine, I have a couple, just a bit annoying to mount in a din rail enclosure 

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thanks for the info.

 

I was just looking on AliExpress and found the 8CH DMX relay switch equivalent at half the price of Amazon. looks pretty identical to me. there's even a 16CH one for £40. seems too good to be true, right? but I've bought from AliExpress before and things seem to work as expected so far.

[jack]

  On 19/12/2023 at 21:23, joth said:

The boards you linked from Amazon work fine, I have a couple, just a bit annoying to mount in a din rail enclosure 

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They're harder to find, but you can get DIN rail mountable versions of these. I have a DIN rail unit with four relays.

[Thorfun]

  On 19/12/2023 at 21:23, joth said:

The boards you linked from Amazon work fine, I have a couple, just a bit annoying to mount in a din rail enclosure 

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the listing on Amazon states 12VDC. I presume that means I'd need a 12VDC PSU and couldn't power it from the Loxone power supply and backup unit as that's 24VDC?

[joth]

  On 19/12/2023 at 21:52, Thorfun said:

 

the listing on Amazon states 12VDC. I presume that means I'd need a 12VDC PSU and couldn't power it from the Loxone power supply and backup unit as that's 24VDC?

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Correct, I tend to use a cheap DC DC converter for any odd 12V (or 5v) item in the enclosure, especially if it has battery backup

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Step-down-Converter-DC-DC-Efficiency-Supply/dp/B07L5K51YP/ref=asc_df_B07L5K51YP/

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by joth

[Thorfun]

  On 20/12/2023 at 10:27, joth said:

Correct, I tend to use a cheap DC DC converter for any odd 12V (or 5v) item in the enclosure, especially if it has battery backup

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Step-down-Converter-DC-DC-Efficiency-Supply/dp/B07L5K51YP/ref=asc_df_B07L5K51YP/

 

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cheers. only issue i can think of with that is how to mount it on a din rail.

 

i was thinking something like this as i could simply mount it on the bottom din rail. only thing i'm not sure on is the Wattage of it. it's status 15W but those DMX relay switches are 12V 1A so that means 12W each, right? therefore if i'm running 3 of them i'd need a 36W PSU at least?

 

is that how it works?

[joth]

Can't see the spec but 1A maybe the inrush current. The definitely don't consume that much in steady state, that'd be appalling

 

The mains 12V PSU is a fine way to go

 

 

[Thorfun]

external blind terminal blocks.....I bought https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/quadruple-deck-rail-mounted-terminal-block/p/2002-4157 for the blinds and here is how I have my blinds tester wired

 

 

the switch is a rocker switch so raises and lowers the blind. I am presuming that the blind cable brown and black are both live and one makes the motor go forwards and the other in reverse. do I then need 2 x relay connections for each blind? one to take it up and the other to take it down? seems logical but, as usual, I haven't catered for that in my number of relay calculations so I would just like to confirm please

[joth]

  On 23/12/2023 at 17:43, Thorfun said:

external blind terminal blocks.....I bought https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/quadruple-deck-rail-mounted-terminal-block/p/2002-4157 for the blinds and here is how I have my blinds tester wired

 

 

the switch is a rocker switch so raises and lowers the blind. I am presuming that the blind cable brown and black are both live and one makes the motor go forwards and the other in reverse. do I then need 2 x relay connections for each blind? one to take it up and the other to take it down? seems logical but, as usual, I haven't catered for that in my number of relay calculations so I would just like to confirm please

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You want to check the installation manual on those assumptions. And especially on the device voltage. But yes assuming it is dual switched live control, you need two relay channels per blind. 

Be careful to never power both cores at the same time. Most are robust to it, but some dislike it immensely 

[Thorfun]

  On 23/12/2023 at 18:59, joth said:

You want to check the installation manual on those assumptions. And especially on the device voltage. But yes assuming it is dual switched live control, you need two relay channels per blind. 

Be careful to never power both cores at the same time. Most are robust to it, but some dislike it immensely 

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thanks. definitely dual switched live. the way I wired the tester up was how the MI stated. I've got 8 blinds.....16 relays.....damn! 😢

[Dan F]

  On 23/12/2023 at 20:38, Thorfun said:

thanks. definitely dual switched live. the way I wired the tester up was how the MI stated. I've got 8 blinds.....16 relays.....damn! 😢

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Relay #4 makes a come-back 🙂. That's the only bad thing about these simple 230v lights, lots of relays.  Using SMI/KNX adds complexity and costs elsewhere though, and Loxone blind actuators are more expensive then two relays AFAIR.

[Thorfun]

  On 23/12/2023 at 22:56, Dan F said:

 

Relay #4 makes a come-back 🙂. That's the only bad thing about these simple 230v lights, lots of relays.  Using SMI/KNX adds complexity and costs elsewhere though, and Loxone blind actuators are more expensive then two relays AFAIR.

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yeah. I'm thinking about getting this from AliExpress which will run all our blinds and is cheap. I've asked the seller if it's din rail mountable as if it's not I'm not sure how to convert it to a din rail mounted board. I'm also confused as to what the daughter board does and whether I can scrap it and wire directly to the main board.

[Thorfun]

  On 23/12/2023 at 22:56, Dan F said:

and Loxone blind actuators are more expensive then two relays AFAIR.

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https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/nano-2-relay-tree.html. £95 each. so that'd be £760 for me! 2 x Relay extensions would be £660 which would also leave me with 12 extra relays left over. why would anyone use the nano 2 relays? although the end stop detection would be nice to have rather than having to 'time' it.

[joth]

Using a whitewing 48ch decoder and half a dozen AliExpress 8 channel SSRs it's about £7 per relay channel (if you have the DMX channels spare already)

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by joth

[Thorfun]

  On 24/12/2023 at 14:18, joth said:

Using a whitewing 48ch decoder and half a dozen AliExpress 8 channel SSRs it's about £7 per relay channel (if you have the DMX channels spare already)

 

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but the WW 48ch decoder is a 24V unit. the blinds are mains voltage so it wouldn't work.

[Thorfun]

  On 24/12/2023 at 14:18, joth said:

Using a whitewing 48ch decoder and half a dozen AliExpress 8 channel SSRs it's about £7 per relay channel (if you have the DMX channels spare already)

 

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  On 24/12/2023 at 14:57, Thorfun said:

but the WW 48ch decoder is a 24V unit. the blinds are mains voltage so it wouldn't work.

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oh wait. hang on, I think I've got that wrong. the 24V WW decoder is just used to 'switch' the mains connection on the SSR so mains voltage doesn't actually go anywhere near the Whitewing decoder?