YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

 

oh wait. hang on, I think I've got that wrong. the 24V WW decoder is just used to 'switch' the mains connection on the SSR so mains voltage doesn't actually go anywhere near the Whitewing decoder?

even if that is the case I only have 5 pins free on my 48Ch decoder so am still short 2 relays (I have 1 free on a Loxone relay extension)

[Thorfun]

Ok! I've managed to (virtually) free up some pins on the WW 48ch decoder and have 13 spare now so the SSR route could work. 

[Thorfun]

right. quick search on AliExpress and these look like they'll do the job for me.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32933708348.html

 

@joth? yes or no?

[Thorfun]

actually, from the more reading I've done I don't think a SPDT relay is actually what I want. I need 2 x SPST relays, right? one for up and one for down. like these

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005996127828.html

[Thorfun]

And now I'm back to not actually being able to figure out how it will work in my Loxone cabinet. I can't figure out how to wire it up.

 

if the below is my relay what cables go where?

 

 

if this one is specifically for 'Blind Up' which is the Brown wire on my 4-core cable then the Brown wire (let's call it L1) will connect to the Normally open connector A1(-), right? so that when someone presses the button to lift the blind up the circuit is closed and 230V flows through A1 and up the wire to the blind which then lifts up. So A2(+) will be the 230V Live from the RCBO?

 

A3(+) looks like it should be the 24V+ and A4(-) will be the cable from the Whitewing DMX decoder?

 

but then where does the Neutral from the RCBO go? 

 

I'm actually confused with all of this and it's probably easier and safer for me to just buy another Loxone relay extension which makes me sad as I'm not an idiot! but sometimes I do question that.

[joth]

41 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I'm actually confused with all of this and it's probably easier and safer for me to just buy another Loxone relay extension which makes me sad as I'm not an idiot! but sometimes I do question that

For long term maintenance there's a lot of benefit in having many of the same part. If you're already waist deep in Loxone relays I'd just keep with them, the simplicity will payback in the long run

My suggestion was more if you hadn't bought anything yet (in 13 pages I'd lost track entirely where  you're at 😂, thought still in design).

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

For long term maintenance there's a lot of benefit in having many of the same part. If you're already waist deep in Loxone relays I'd just keep with them, the simplicity will payback in the long run

My suggestion was more if you hadn't bought anything yet (in 13 pages I'd lost track entirely where  you're at 😂, thought still in design).

I am so far deep it's beyond belief! I have multiple parts here on site ready to be put together once I've finished my panel layout/terminal block connection spreadsheet. I think you're right though and will probably plump with yet another relay extension but, the problem is that 14 relays won't be enough for the blinds alone let alone once I get to the basement lighting. with another relay extension I will have 7 relays left over for the basement. plus another 16-channel mains dimmer from Whitewing and some 24V DMX channels left over it 'should' be enough. but after 4 relay extensions at £330+VAT a pop it's really gotten a lot more expensive than I was hoping.

 

I'm still looking at the SSR route and doing more research as it could be a cheap interim solution until I can get some more money and make a more permanent solution out of it. 

[MikeSharp01]

24 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

Whitewing and some 24V DMX channels left over it 'should' be enough. but after 4 relay extensions at £330+VAT a pop it's

Sound like there is a gap in the market for competitive products who can better the price point. Its only electronics after all but perhaps they need to avoid the complications of the Home Assistants - I wanted to integrate them into my home brew system but decided that the 988 page standards doc was better left alone and to stick with If This Then That only would be simpler.

[joth]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I'm still looking at the SSR route and doing more research as it could be a cheap interim solution until I can get some more money and make a more permanent solution out of it. 

 

If you have spare 24v channels,  have a bunch of 24V relays or SSRs you can have as interim 

these,  8 channel and cheap as chips

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html

 

 

[Thorfun]

50 minutes ago, joth said:

 

If you have spare 24v channels,  have a bunch of 24V relays or SSRs you can have as interim 

these,  8 channel and cheap as chips

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html

 

 

yeah. would love to but can't figure out how to wire them up! this is what I've come up with but I haven't a clue if it's correct.

 

 

there are 2 x SPST SSRs on the left and the https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/quadruple-deck-rail-mounted-terminal-block/p/2002-4157 terminal block in the middle with power from an RCBO or https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-7646 terminal block.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Sound like there is a gap in the market for competitive products who can better the price point. Its only electronics after all but perhaps they need to avoid the complications of the Home Assistants - I wanted to integrate them into my home brew system but decided that the 988 page standards doc was better left alone and to stick with If This Then That only would be simpler.

I agree! and I asked Mike from Whitewing if he made a relay due to the cost of the Loxone ones but he just pointed me to the DMX relays or to use power relays connected to his dimmers which is what @joth is suggesting. and I understand that it's a great solution but I just can't figure out how to wire them up. I do get lost on electrics sometimes until I've done it all once and then the pieces just fall in to place and I realise how simple it is once I know how. 🤦‍♂️ 

[joth]

Put +24v into the coil of a relay (or channel input on the SSR) and then into the relevant channel "output" of the whitewing decoder which will sink to ground when on.

Then on the secondary side of the relay do whatever you have to do. Send 230v to the blind or light, and then from there back to the N of the appropriate rcbo.

With a mechanical relay the secondary can do anything. If it's an SSR it has to be matched to the type of SSR. E.g. 230v AC or 12v DC etc.  the SSRs I use only have one live input per module so all channels on it need to be on the same rcbo.

 

Good luck and happy Christmas! 

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, joth said:

Put +24v into the coil of a relay (or channel input on the SSR) and then into the relevant channel "output" of the whitewing decoder which will sink to ground when on.

Then on the secondary side of the relay do whatever you have to do. Send 230v to the blind or light, and then from there back to the N of the appropriate rcbo.

With a mechanical relay the secondary can do anything. If it's an SSR it has to be matched to the type of SSR. E.g. 230v AC or 12v DC etc.  the SSRs I use only have one live input per module so all channels on it need to be on the same rcbo.

 

Good luck and happy Christmas! 

thanks. you too!

[Thorfun]

morning all. hope you had a lovely Christmas. I have a question about the integration and control of RGBW led strips using the DMX extension and a DMX controller (specifically the WhiteWing one). how do you set the colour of the led strip? is there a nice gui integration with Loxone in the same way their own RGBW dimmers have?

 

just had a horrible thought that the wife and kids are going to start having to move sliders to get values from 0 - 255 for each colour to find what they want!

 

would be great if there was a nice gui like this

 

[Rob99]

It's a while since I did anything with DMX but as far as I can remember, all colour options/moods etc are configured within the Loxone lighting controller and the controller takes care of what is output on the various output circuits (Lc1,Lc2 etc).

 

For DMX I think it is just a case of adding the "DMX RGB and W actuator" device to your DMX extension (which itself will be configured to send DMX signals to the whitewing module) and attaching the actuator to the Lighting Controller output. The actuator type in Loxone should show up as SMA (smart actuator) in config.

 

[joth]

This is what the RGBW colour picker looks like

Hadn't noticed DMX colour lights have the automatic daylight control option now, like Dali CCT lights. 

 

[Thorfun]

qq. if an RGBW led strip has a power usage of 12W/m, does that mean that each 'colour' uses 3W/m? so a 5m run of that strip will use 60W in total with each colour using 15W which means each channel will be 0.625A? 

 

trying to ensure I don't exceed the maximum current per bank of connectors.

[Thorfun]

I have another issue that I need help solving. we have an LED strip in the ceiling around our island 

the total length of that LED strip will be 12.4m. the led strips I'm looking at that will give decent relatively un-spotty light (i.e. 120leds/m)are 7.36W/m.

 

so, by my calculations that is a total of 88.32W which equates to 3.68A at 24V. the Whitewing 24V DMX dimmer only allows 2A per channel so this led strip is too much for that dmx dimmer.

 

is this a case of having to buy something like this to run circuits that breach the 2A limit? I'm aware that I can dim the strip to reduce the power and, therefore, current but I am working on the assumption that someone in the future might forget about the current limit and set it to full whack.

 

any other solutions? 

[Rob99]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

qq. if an RGBW led strip has a power usage of 12W/m, does that mean that each 'colour' uses 3W/m? so a 5m run of that strip will use 60W in total with each colour using 15W which means each channel will be 0.625A? 

 

trying to ensure I don't exceed the maximum current per bank of connectors.

Although different colours usually have slightly different wattage, in most RGBW strips the variation between each colour will be quite small so I wouldn't worry about individual channels, just go with 3W/m for each colour.

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I have another issue that I need help solving. we have an LED strip in the ceiling around our island 

the total length of that LED strip will be 12.4m. the led strips I'm looking at that will give decent relatively un-spotty light (i.e. 120leds/m)are 7.36W/m.

 

so, by my calculations that is a total of 88.32W which equates to 3.68A at 24V. the Whitewing 24V DMX dimmer only allows 2A per channel so this led strip is too much for that dmx dimmer.

 

is this a case of having to buy something like this to run circuits that breach the 2A limit? I'm aware that I can dim the strip to reduce the power and, therefore, current but I am working on the assumption that someone in the future might forget about the current limit and set it to full whack.

 

any other solutions? 

Split the LED strip into 2 and then connect each one to a seperate whitewing output, the 2 DMX actuators can then be commoned to a single lighting output in config so will act as a single strip. Extra tip, if you can, have both ends of each strip connected as that should prevent any slightly "dimmer" areas furthest from the power supply.

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

Although different colours usually have slightly different wattage, in most RGBW strips the variation between each colour will be quite small so I wouldn't worry about individual channels, just go with 3W/m for each colour.

perfect. thank you.

 

5 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

Split the LED strip into 2 and then connect each one to a seperate whitewing output, the 2 DMX actuators can then be commoned to a single lighting output in config so will act as a single strip. Extra tip, if you can, have both ends of each strip connected as that should prevent any slightly "dimmer" areas furthest from the power supply.

so i was planning on using 2 x 6.2m strips but attached to a single T&E cable. you can see the single 1.5mm T&E cable in the back left corner so i have just the one cable from the cabinet to the led strip so if i understand you correctly i'm unable to do what you suggest? there's no chance of running another cable now either. 😢

[Rob99]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

so i was planning on using 2 x 6.2m strips but attached to a single T&E cable. you can see the single 1.5mm T&E cable in the back left corner so i have just the one cable from the cabinet to the led strip so if i understand you correctly i'm unable to do what you suggest? there's no chance of running another cable now either. 😢

Ah, bugger!
Might be worth contacting Mike at WW to see if you can parallel 2 channels.

[jack]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I'm aware that I can dim the strip to reduce the power and, therefore, current but I am working on the assumption that someone in the future might forget about the current limit and set it to full whack.

 

any other solutions? 

 

You can set a maximum output per channel in the lighting controller, which prevents the app from being used to set too high a value. Leave a note in the config to explain why you've done this.

 

I did this with our one 24V strip, because at full whack it took us closer to the power supply's rated power than I was comfortable with.

[Thorfun]

3 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Ah, bugger!
Might be worth contacting Mike at WW to see if you can parallel 2 channels.

he said it should be fine but recommended not using adjacent channels and to ensure I don't exceed the max for the bank, i.e. 12A across the bank.

[Thorfun]

26 minutes ago, jack said:

 

You can set a maximum output per channel in the lighting controller, which prevents the app from being used to set too high a value. Leave a note in the config to explain why you've done this.

 

I did this with our one 24V strip, because at full whack it took us closer to the power supply's rated power than I was comfortable with.

yeah, I was thinking this. but can you tell me if I can configure the max output for the channel during Loxone setup before power is sent to the LED strip? i.e. I set the limit and then enable it and the power flows?

 

although, if you see the above answer from Mike my concerns have been alleviated anyway! 🙂 

[Thorfun]

I've done it!!! I've managed to configure the blinds and the lights without needing to buy relay no. 4. although, I have had to not connect up some lights on day 1 and those few can wait until the basement gets done and I have to buy new relays/dimmers for those lights. 

 

I created a spreadsheet showing the layout of the WW dimmer with the relevant current for each channel to ensure I don't exceed the maximum and I am left with 17 usable channels which I will buy some SSRs at the suggestion of @joth and save myself a small fortune on new relays. here's my WW DMX Dimmer layout for your information if you're interested.

 

 

it's a shame I can't get everything purchased now as it'll probably involve a bit of rewiring once it comes to doing the basement and the circuits I'm not connecting now but I really don't have the money to spend at the moment so needs must.

 

anyway, I can now finalise the design and layout and terminal block connection plans and finally get cracking building the <expletive deleted> thing!! 🤣