YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

this is the single most compelling argument to do it that way! what size RCBO do you have feeding the Loxone cabinet? I presume it needs to be quite beefy? maybe 2 x smaller ones might be a good way to go so that only half the cabinet will fail if one of the CU RCBO trips?

32A I think. Then in the cabinet, everything is 6A apart from UFH which I think is 16A. We used c-curve RCBOs for the chunky PSUs otherwise, they trip due to in-rush current. The Meanwell datasheet says how many are recommended on a B-curve vs a C-curve etc.

[jack]

10 hours ago, Thorfun said:

the battery system is already installed. not sure where it sits in relation to the surge protection though tbh! my sparky just wired it up for me and it seems to work! 🤣 but the batteries are on the house side of the CU. if you're interested I can try and map it out but it wouldn't be until the weekend as the day job keeps getting in the way of things.

 

this is the single most compelling argument to do it that way! what size RCBO do you have feeding the Loxone cabinet? I presume it needs to be quite beefy? maybe 2 x smaller ones might be a good way to go so that only half the cabinet will fail if one of the CU RCBO trips?

 

@Rob99? how do you do your customer's setups? I'm pretty sure I remember from @joth's photos that he also has RCBOs in the Loxone cabinet. @jack? how's yours done?

 

anyone else care to comment? I only tagged the above as they're in the top posters in this topic 😉 

 

I have to flip several RCBOs in our CU to isolate the Loxone panel.

 

It's been over 8 years since we did our installation, but I vaguely recall having a conversation about this with the electrician, and seem to recall that he was uncomfortable with moving a lot of what would usually be in a CU into the Loxone cabinet. I don't remember whether it was regs or a lack of panel space that led us to the decision in the end!

[Thorfun]

9 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I have to flip several RCBOs in our CU to isolate the Loxone panel.

 

It's been over 8 years since we did our installation, but I vaguely recall having a conversation about this with the electrician, and seem to recall that he was uncomfortable with moving a lot of what would usually be in a CU into the Loxone cabinet. I don't remember whether it was regs or a lack of panel space that led us to the decision in the end!

Thanks. Out of interest, in the 8yrs how many times have you needed to isolate the Loxone cabinet from the CU? Seems that once it’s set up it’s not something that would happen often. 

[Kelvin]

All my lighting circuits will come into the Loxone cabinet with a single isolation point in the CU. Electrician didn’t have an issue with this. It seemed the most logical and neater way to do it. 

[Thorfun]

21 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

All my lighting circuits will come into the Loxone cabinet with a single isolation point in the CU. Electrician didn’t have an issue with this. It seemed the most logical and neater way to do it. 

I’d like a way to isolate a rooms lighting so if changing a fitting I don’t have to turn the entire house/floor off. 

[Kelvin]

21 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I’d like a way to isolate a rooms lighting so if changing a fitting I don’t have to turn the entire house/floor off. 

I understand that but how often are you going to be doing that vs the neatness of the install. I wanted my plant room to be as neat as possible. It’s not worked out quite like that as I’m a bit spaced limited and I never put enough detailed thought into it. 

[joth]

So each sparky has a different take on this, but the common view is the place that contains the isolation and earth leak protection is the thing that has to confirm to 18th edition IET cu rules. By putting all isolation and rcd in the main CU you may relieve the Loxone cabinet from having to comply as a CU, effectively it's just another custom-built appliance. (Or, collection of CE marked appliances assembled in one box for convenience).

Note the CU regs are more than just the enclosure having the 18th ed mark, it also includes correctly sealing all openings with grommets and so on. Of course it's a good idea to try and comply with as much as you can of that anyway, regardless of technically whether or  not it "is" a CU. The point here more is about the scope and ownership of paperwork involved for signing it off.

 

I've built cabinets both ways. In each case led by site sparky preference and also by having site sparky terminate the cables into the Loxone cabinet it's their ballcourt to seal openings into it as required and sign it off too

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by joth

[joth]

54 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

All my lighting circuits will come into the Loxone cabinet with a single isolation point in the CU. Electrician didn’t have an issue with this. It seemed the most logical and neater way to do it. 

Downside of this is an earth leak (especially likely on an outdoor circuit, but easy when changing a lightbulb indoors too) will trip all lights in the house. 

Sparky on my current project wants 2 RCBOs per floor  to ensure everywhere still has some lighting even in the case of nuisance trips.

I think we're up to 12 RCBOs in the Loxone cab, and about 30 more in the main 3ph  DB 

Edited December 12, 2023 by joth

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, joth said:

So each sparky has a different take on this, but the common view is the place that contains the isolation and earth leak protection is the thing that has to confirm to 18th edition IET cu rules.

 

I have single isolation and earth leakage protection in CU and then inside the panel, have additional per-circuit protection.  My understanding was that this made the Loxone panel an appliance.  i.e. it's not the RCBOs in the Loxone panel that make it a CU, but rather it's the isolation and earth-leakage in the CU that make it an appliance (and I just happened to use RCBOs in my appliance).   I may have this wrong though.

 

58 minutes ago, joth said:

Downside of this is an earth leak (especially likely on an outdoor circuit, but easy when changing a lightbulb indoors too) will trip all lights in the house.

 

Only if you don't also use smaller per-circuit RCBOs in the panel.

 

58 minutes ago, joth said:

Sparky on my current project wants 2 RCBOs per floor  to ensure everywhere still has some lighting even in the case of nuisance trips.

 

We've used 7-8 RCBOs per floor.  These are all in two loxone panels; one in the plant room and a smaller one in the lost.  Each panel has a single isolation point in CU. The 8 RCBOs in the loft panel, for example, are.

- UFH
- Towel Rails

- Blinds/Curtains

- Downlights

- Low-level/niche lighting etc

- External facade lighting
- 2 x LED lighting (2 c-curve required due to the high in-rush current of the drivers)

We have something similar in the ground floor panel.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Dan F

[joth]

7 minutes ago, Dan F said:

1 hour ago, joth said:

Downside of this is an earth leak (especially likely on an outdoor circuit, but easy when changing a lightbulb indoors too) will trip all lights in the house.

 

Only if you don't also use smaller per-circuit RCBOs in the panel.

Ack, I see your point. Every sparky I worked with so far wasn't keen on having double earth-leak protection on any circuit (even with different sizing) but I admit that may also be my own preference/bias I'm projecting onto them.

When I did multiple circuits + RCBOs in the CU I also put some per-circuit MCBs in the Loxone panel for convenience (the sparky didn't even want them there, but accepted that I needed them for my own peace of mind, especially as the RCBOs were scattered over 2 CUs)

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

I understand that but how often are you going to be doing that vs the neatness of the install. I wanted my plant room to be as neat as possible. It’s not worked out quite like that as I’m a bit spaced limited and I never put enough detailed thought into it. 

isn't that what trunking is for? 😉

[Kelvin]

10 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

isn't that what trunking is for? 😉

I don’t really have the room for all that either. My cables all come down from the ceiling and through the plywood so it’s mostly all hidden. 

[jack]

9 hours ago, Thorfun said:

Thanks. Out of interest, in the 8yrs how many times have you needed to isolate the Loxone cabinet from the CU? Seems that once it’s set up it’s not something that would happen often. 

 

Not often. I had issues with cheap DMX dimmers for a while so I did need to switch it all off to make changes.

 

I wouldn't bother just for the convenience of having fewer switches to isolate, but I do like the idea of less wiring coming into the Loxone cabinet.

 

As with so many things, there's a lot I'd change if I were doing it all again!

[Thorfun]

@Rob99 are these (https://www.tme.eu/Document/b14caeecc65d781d96268d2fe93decd5/2003-7646.pdf) the Wago equivalent of the Weidmuller ones on the Loxone website?

 

https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/2003-7646/rail-mounted-connectors/wago/

Edited December 13, 2023 by Thorfun

[Thorfun]

21 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

@Rob99 are these (https://www.tme.eu/Document/b14caeecc65d781d96268d2fe93decd5/2003-7646.pdf) the Wago equivalent of the Weidmuller ones on the Loxone website?

 

https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/2003-7646/rail-mounted-connectors/wago/

oh ffs! I've also seen these https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-6646. looks like the difference is shape/size and max current rating. 

 

just when I think I've made a decision something else comes along to scupper it or put doubt in my mind. 🤦‍♂️

 

I guess that's the problem when you're shopping around to find the cheapest price and not every site has everything you need 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

oh ffs! I've also seen these https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-6646. looks like the difference is shape/size and max current rating. 

 

just when I think I've made a decision something else comes along to scupper it or put doubt in my mind. 🤦‍♂️

 

I guess that's the problem when you're shopping around to find the cheapest price and not every site has everything you need 

 

I started looking at the different brands, but got lost with all the different options and decided to stick to Weidmuller.

 

Are the Wago ones cheaper, or easier to get individually?

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

 

I started looking at the different brands, but got lost with all the different options and decided to stick to Weidmuller.

 

Are the Wago ones cheaper, or easier to get individually?

 

 

 

I also was banging my head against a wall trying to compare and look at other brands and find where to buy from so I created a spreadsheet. 🙂 

 

Wago are cheaper but there seems not much difference between the two to get individually.

 

In the end (and I've literally just finished my research) I've decided to go with Wago which will please @Rob99.

 

I wonder if the knowledgable folk on this forum can double check that these Wago parts are compatible please?

 

Loxone Cabinet Din rail components

 

PPV 8 GR 35X7.5 DGR

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/catalog/Start.do?ObjectID=1173870000

 

PRV 8 BL 35X7.5 RT/WS

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/catalog/Start.do;jsessionid=34F4787B2C14E096B97A60ACDA4A89A3?ObjectID=1267840000&page=Product

 

PAP PRV/PPV8 SW

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=A6DB5AA66D28A4F406F80D634E4BF620?productId=(%5b1173720000%5d)&page=Product

 

Multilevel installation terminal block N/L/PE 2.5mm2

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-7646

 

Multilevel installation terminal block N/L/PE End and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2003-7692

 

Double-deck terminal block

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/double-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-2201

 

Double-deck terminal block end and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2002-2292

 

Triple-deck terminal block

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/triple-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-3201

 

Triple-deck terminal block end and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2002-3292

 

Quadruple-deck terminal block L1 - L2 - L3 - PE for motor

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/quadruple-deck-rail-mounted-terminal-block/p/2002-4157

 

Cross-connectors

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/jumper/p/2002-410

 

 

In order to get the best prices and all components I will need to buy from 3 different places which is a bit frustrating but most seem to offer free delivery over a certain amount so it doesn't really affect me too much. it's just a faff to keep track of what is coming from where!

 

 

 

[Rob99]

On 11/12/2023 at 22:16, Thorfun said:

@Rob99? how do you do your customer's setups? I'm pretty sure I remember from @joth's photos that he also has RCBOs in the Loxone cabinet. @jack? how's yours done?

 

anyone else care to comment? I only tagged the above as they're in the top posters in this topic 😉 

I have always built cabinets with RCBO feeds coming from the main DB, not included within the Loxone cabinet. Having RCBO's within the cabinet and as the only form of circuit protection and isolation in my view would not comply with current regs. Using RCBO's or MCB's in the Loxone cabinet as a secondary means of circuit isolation I would say is fine but not something I have done for any clients.

[Rob99]

5 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I also was banging my head against a wall trying to compare and look at other brands and find where to buy from so I created a spreadsheet. 🙂 

 

Wago are cheaper but there seems not much difference between the two to get individually.

 

In the end (and I've literally just finished my research) I've decided to go with Wago which will please @Rob99.

 

I wonder if the knowledgable folk on this forum can double check that these Wago parts are compatible please?

 

Loxone Cabinet Din rail components

 

PPV 8 GR 35X7.5 DGR

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/catalog/Start.do?ObjectID=1173870000

 

PRV 8 BL 35X7.5 RT/WS

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/catalog/Start.do;jsessionid=34F4787B2C14E096B97A60ACDA4A89A3?ObjectID=1267840000&page=Product

 

PAP PRV/PPV8 SW

https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=A6DB5AA66D28A4F406F80D634E4BF620?productId=(%5b1173720000%5d)&page=Product

 

Multilevel installation terminal block N/L/PE 2.5mm2

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-7646

 

Multilevel installation terminal block N/L/PE End and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2003-7692

 

Double-deck terminal block

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/double-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-2201

 

Double-deck terminal block end and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2002-2292

 

Triple-deck terminal block

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/triple-deck-terminal-block/p/2002-3201

 

Triple-deck terminal block end and intermediate plate

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/end-and-intermediate-plate/p/2002-3292

 

Quadruple-deck terminal block L1 - L2 - L3 - PE for motor

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/quadruple-deck-rail-mounted-terminal-block/p/2002-4157

 

Cross-connectors

https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/jumper/p/2002-410

 

 

In order to get the best prices and all components I will need to buy from 3 different places which is a bit frustrating but most seem to offer free delivery over a certain amount so it doesn't really affect me too much. it's just a faff to keep track of what is coming from where!

 

 

 

All those terminal blocks should work fine together. I use most of what you've listed in my cabinet builds. I don't use the 2003 series as I never see the need to connect the earth of any circuit to the DIN rail, preferring instead to install large earth bars at the top of the cabinet.

 

The cross-connectors/jumpers can be bought in 2-10 way variants.

 

Which suppliers are you sourcing your terminal blocks from?

 

 

[Thorfun]

7 hours ago, Rob99 said:

All those terminal blocks should work fine together. I use most of what you've listed in my cabinet builds. I don't use the 2003 series as I never see the need to connect the earth of any circuit to the DIN rail, preferring instead to install large earth bars at the top of the cabinet.

 

The cross-connectors/jumpers can be bought in 2-10 way variants.

 

Which suppliers are you sourcing your terminal blocks from?

 

 

can the cross-connectors be cut or do you have to buy the exact size you want?

 

here's my spreadsheet showing the different prices and availability

 

 

the Loxone prices are so high because of the minimum quantities you have to buy in. it's interesting that uk.farnell.com and cpc.farnell.com have wildly different prices with CPC being a lot cheaper. but CPC don't stock the 2002-4157.

[Rob99]

The cross connectors are not designed to be cut to length as that would leave an exposed end. I buy whatever sizes I need to use but usually buy in small batches. I don't bother with coloured terminal blocks or cross connectors, just buy the standard grey.

 

You seem to have a lot of end plates on your list, I'd be surprised if you needed that many.

 

I've never found a single supplier who was able to source everything I needed so always have to place several orders. EIB market came close and cheap but they are in Europe and won't now sell to UK since Brexit.

 

I found Hub good for some of the Wago stuff, and a decent price. I think they are local to you too. The CPC/Farnell price thing is bizarre as they are the same company. Have you tried RS? I find them really cheap for some stuff (e.g. DIN rail terminal block end stops)

 

Not specifically terminal block related but I have found Digi-Key very competitive on other components like power supplies. Even shipping and customs from the states (which is all included in their price) they were 20% cheaper than I could buy from any UK source.

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Rob99 said:

You seem to have a lot of end plates on your list, I'd be surprised if you needed that many

True but they’re so cheap I’ve over-specked just in case. 😉

 

1 hour ago, Rob99 said:

I found Hub good for some of the Wago stuff, and a decent price. I think they are local to you too.

They are pretty local. Will pop in to see them as they do see very keenly priced. 

[joth]

2 hours ago, Rob99 said:

EIB market came close and cheap but they are in Europe and won't now sell to UK since Brexit

I've bought quite a few times from eib market, no problems, but I'm importing it via my vat registered company. Maybe they don't sell direct to consumers

 

Fwiw I do cut down the cross connects to the size needed, then use endplates that generally cover over any exposed end. This may not be best practice but only using premade sizes seemed impractical 

[Thorfun]

do I need any special tools to fit the cables in to the Wago terminal blocks or the Weidmuller 8-way blocks?

[Dan F]

39 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

do I need any special tools to fit the cables in to the Wago terminal blocks or the Weidmuller 8-way blocks?

 

No. Thicker solid-core cable just push-in, if thinner though it can be helpful to push down the release "button" (with a small screwdriver) at the same time as pushing cable in. This way you avoid the thin AWG23 core bending as you try to push it in.   Looks like the the Wago's have a recessed release "button". but you'll still be fine with a small flat-head screwdriver unless you want to get the Wago "operating tool" https://www.wago.com/gb/tools/operating-tool/p/2009-309

 

Is everything solid core?  If you have stranded cables it's best practice to terminate these with bootlace ferrules first, even though the terminal blocks do support stranded.

 

Note that with standard cables and ferrules the maxumum core size is 2.5mm2 instead of 4mm2 for the Wago, but that should be plently.  This info, along with strip lengths in the datasheet.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Dan F