Passivhaus shutters with flyscreens

[puntloos]

So, I've been speaking to Aluprof, the most likely supplier of my windows, and sadly their external shutter system - the flush mounted shutter rollers 's flyscreen is apparently somewhat prone to failure. Pity.

 

Does anyone know any other brand of external shutters that is:

 

1/ Integrated (flush mounted) into the wall

2/ Passivhaus certified, ideally. 

3/ Flyscreen integrated, also ideally.

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

So, I've been speaking to Aluprof, the most likely supplier of my windows, and sadly their external shutter system - the flush mounted shutter rollers 's flyscreen is apparently somewhat prone to failure. Pity.

 

Does anyone know any other brand of external shutters that is:

 

1/ Integrated (flush mounted) into the wall

2/ Passivhaus certified, ideally. 

3/ Flyscreen integrated, also ideally.

 

Do you definitely want shutters and not venetian blinds?  Our blinds are venetian, but close better than most venetian blinds meaning that once closed they look much like shutters and block out most light.  Being able to adjust them to block direct sunlight but allow reflected light is also invaluable in the summer to minimize solar gain, but still be able to see out of the windows.  External blinds/shutters, given they are outside the building fabric itself won't ever be PH certified.  The use of blinds/shutters however can be used in PHPP for modelling overheating.

 

If possible try to get your blinds/windows from the same supplier and installed by the same person.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Dan F

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

Aluprof

These look good!  Do they supply direct in the U.K. or via resellers?

[Dan F]

54 minutes ago, Dan F said:

External blinds/shutters, given they are outside the building fabric itself won't ever be PH certified

Hmm, I was wrong. My blinds appear to be PH certified!  https://database.passivehouse.com/en/components/details/shutter/romawiegand-modulo-p-0254rs03. Looks like this is about the window head detail more than anything else.

[joth]

7 hours ago, Dan F said:

Hmm, I was wrong. My blinds appear to be PH certified!  https://database.passivehouse.com/en/components/details/shutter/romawiegand-modulo-p-0254rs03. Looks like this is about the window head detail more than anything else.

 

Is this the product page for them?

https://www.roma.eu/external-venetian-blinds/modular-external-venetian-blinds

 

As you say the nice thing about Venetian blinds is being able to block heat gains but still allow light in, and Loxone includes automatic support for this based on location and time of year .

 

They state they have a Loxone control option, but not knx. Is it anything more than Tree/Air to up/down motor control relays with dead reckoning for position? The internorm blinds (for example) are in theory  better as you can set absolute position or even read  back their position/angle (but in practice are a bit crap because they use a proprietary unreliable wireless protocol).

 

The optional fly screen appears to be manual control only, which is totally fine IMO. 

 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, joth said:

 

Is this the product page for them?

https://www.roma.eu/external-venetian-blinds/modular-external-venetian-blinds

Yes, supplied by @craig.  The external textile screens are interesting too, we never considered them but I know of another project that used these.

 

1 hour ago, joth said:

They state they have a Loxone control option, but not knx. Is it anything more than Tree/Air to up/down motor control relays with dead reckoning for position? The internorm blinds (for example) are in theory  better as you can set absolute position or even read  back their position/angle (but in practice are a bit crap because they use a proprietary unreliable wireless protocol).

We used the standard motors and simply wired them back to 2 Loxone relays. Works really well.  We could have upgraded to SMI motors and then done SMI->KNX->Loxone, but after looking at this I didn't feel it was going to add any practical value given Loxone already does a good job at controlling slat position.

 

Early on I also debated using a shade actuator or tree relay close to the blinds to avoid wiring everything back to the Loxone cabinet or replaceding the supplied motors for the Loxone (Geiger) ones, but I ended up deciding simper was better and went for the dumb motors and loxone relays and don't regret it.

 

[joth]

19 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Early on I also debated using a shade actuator or tree relay close to the blinds to avoid wiring everything back to the Loxone cabinet

Did you put a (fused?) isolation switch near to each shutter, for future maintenance? Presumably a double pole switch?

 

I think this is the main thing pushing me towards nano  relays (or small Knx actuator relays) in the backbox of the isolation switch, as it's there anyway, and a natural place to connect the external flex to internal T&E circuit 

 

 

[joth]

10 hours ago, Dan F said:

Our blinds are venetian, but close better than most venetian blinds meaning that once closed they look much like shutters and block out most light. 

Does "most light" mean really no need for additional curtains in a bedroom, for example?

The internorm Venetians have little holes for the support strings which let just a bit too much light through, especially from annoying point sources like a street light.

 

The total blackout of shutters (plus additional sound and heat insulation this delivers) is quite a selling point.

 

How robust are the external Venetians, to wind or casual vandalism?

They seem to have vertical channels at the ends to stop gusts of wind lifting them off and banging back down?

[jack]

25 minutes ago, joth said:

Does "most light" mean really no need for additional curtains in a bedroom, for example?

The internorm Venetians have little holes for the support strings which let just a bit too much light through, especially from annoying point sources like a street light.

 

The total blackout of shutters (plus additional sound and heat insulation this delivers) is quite a selling point.

 

How robust are the external Venetians, to wind or casual vandalism?

They seem to have vertical channels at the ends to stop gusts of wind lifting them off and banging back down?

 

Ours have holes for the strings and a small (few mm) gap either end of the slats. Together, these let in enough light that we find them unsuitable for bedrooms, especially those with east-facing windows.

 

I'm sure some potential miscreants look at them from a distance and assume they're security blinds, but they're completely useless for that. You can easily lift them up in the rails with one hand. I imagine you could tear them off without too much trouble - they're only aluminium with plastic end guides in the rails.

 

They do rattle a bit in heavy winds. There's a recommendation to raise them into the housing during strong winds, but we've no longer bother after never having had any damage even during the worse storms. Might be different if you lived in a windier area than us. 

[Dan F]

25 minutes ago, joth said:

Did you put a (fused?) isolation switch near to each shutter, for future maintenance? Presumably a double pole switch?

No, why would a fused isolator be required?  I can see that it makes sense for the connector to be accesible in case the blind motor ever needs replacing, but I can't remember where this connector is in our case or if it's acessible externaly, I'd have to check.  We don't have any accessible points internally.

The motors that are supplied with the Roma blinds are these: https://www.elero.com/en/products/electrical-drives/ja-comfort

 

 

25 minutes ago, joth said:

I think this is the main thing pushing me towards nano  relays (or small Knx actuator relays) in the backbox of the isolation switch, as it's there anyway, and a natural place to connect the external flex to internal T&E circuit 

Yeah, pros and cons.  Local relay means a (visible) accessible location next to windows and more CAT7 cabling, remote relay means more 230v cabling.

[joth]

2 minutes ago, Dan F said:

36 minutes ago, joth said:

Did you put a (fused?) isolation switch near to each shutter, for future maintenance? Presumably a double pole switch?

No, why would a fused isolator be required? 

 

I had the same thought for electric UFH mats. Like, the heating element is encased in adhesive under the tiles. Totally inaccessible. But our electrician insisted there must be a local isolation switch for anyone ever working on it. 

 

I guess in the case of a fault it maybe sensible to have a way to easily, locally isolate that one motor.

[Dan F]

30 minutes ago, joth said:

Does "most light" mean really no need for additional curtains in a bedroom, for example?

The internorm Venetians have little holes for the support strings which let just a bit too much light through, especially from annoying point sources like a street light.

It depends who you are.  For most people it is enough for avoid blackout curtains, but it's just not quite enough for my wife!  They are a significiantly better than most venetian blinds though.  Look for "Roma CDL" on yourtube and you'll find some videos that show how the slat is different.

 

30 minutes ago, joth said:

The total blackout of shutters (plus additional sound and heat insulation this delivers) is quite a selling point.

Maybe, expect you can have blinds and shutters really and using shutters during the day in the summer to prevent overheating (and block out daylight) is far from ideal I think. Venentians have the ability to block direct light, but reflect indirect light up towards your ceiling internally so house is still nice and bright.

 

30 minutes ago, joth said:

How robust are the external Venetians, to wind or casual vandalism?

They seem to have vertical channels at the ends to stop gusts of wind lifting them off and banging back down?

It depends on the type of slats you use and the size of the windows.  The Roma technical manual has all the wind tables.  The CDL slats are quite good in wind house in most areas are fairly sheltered anyway, so we're never going to needto raise them due to wind speed.  In the storm earlier in the week we had them down and they don't lift in any way at all, in stong winds they do make a little bit of noise though.

 

If casual vandalism bends the think aluninum slats that's not good news as it'd be hard to bend them make and them be perfectly straight.

 

[Dan F]

5 minutes ago, joth said:

 

I had the same thought for electric UFH mats. Like, the heating element is encased in adhesive under the tiles. Totally inaccessible. But our electrician insisted there must be a local isolation switch for anyone ever working on it. 

 

I guess in the case of a fault it maybe sensible to have a way to easily, locally isolate that one motor.

 

All blinds/curtains have a dedicated RCBO in the Loxone cabinet which you could turn off to isolate all blinds.  Same with UFH in bathrooms (seperate RCBO though).  Our elecrician didn't suggest local isolation.

 

[joth]

13 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

All blinds/curtains have a dedicated RCBO in the Loxone cabinet which you could turn off to isolate all blinds.  Same with UFH in bathrooms (seperate RCBO though).  Our elecrician didn't suggest local isolation.

 

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but it's easy to find reports of 537.3.2.2 jobsworths that demand a local switch within 2m of the device. One challenge is the regulation says the means of isolation must be clear and convenient, which is subjective.

I'd be annoyed to plan for central relays and then an onsite contractor insist on putting in per blind isolators anyway. Although this is what happened on my build with UFH and towel rads. 

 

 

[puntloos]

Phew! I leave you guys alone for 3 days and there's so much discussion I wouldn't know where to start. But in short:
 

Venetians.. quite a good idea, but I am somewhat worried about the amount of light it blocks in bedrooms. I'll have a think. Frankly most external shutters I've encountered in my life also leave plenty of light pouring through. Are proper modern shutters truly blackout

 

Turns out "my brand" - aluprof also has venetians - although they spell it wrong, is that a yellow flag?

https://aluprof.eu/en/architects/catalogue-for-architects/external-venetian-blinds/skb-f#/materials/general-information

 

Certainly venetians feel somewhat more flimsy

 

Flush mounted flyscreens.. especially for my sliding doors (to the garden) they'd need to be quicklly openable so perhaps better from the side rather than rolling slowly from the top.

 

[puntloos]

On 03/11/2022 at 11:56, Dan F said:

It depends who you are.  For most people it is enough for avoid blackout curtains, but it's just not quite enough for my wife!  They are a significiantly better than most venetian blinds though.  Look for "Roma CDL" on yourtube and you'll find some videos that show how the slat is different.

 

The lady in this video says that they block 75% of the sunlight. Not amazing, not bad. 

 

as 

[Russdl]

@puntloos are you sure she’s saying ‘blocks 75% of the sunlight”? My German is a bit ragged these days (perhaps @ToughButterCup can help) but when I lived in Germany we had blinds similar to those and they blocked at least 200% of the sunlight, it was like walking into a cave when they were down. 
 

I hear the 75% bit she mentions, but before that she’s talking about keeping cool so perhaps she talking about the solar radiation?

[puntloos]

3 hours ago, Russdl said:

@puntloos are you sure she’s saying ‘blocks 75% of the sunlight”?

Yes, I'm pretty sure. 

3 hours ago, Russdl said:

My German is a bit ragged these days (perhaps @ToughButterCup can help) but when I lived in Germany we had blinds similar to those and they blocked at least 200% of the sunlight, it was like walking into a cave when they were down. 

I don't think you can block more than 100% 😃

 

One extra question though: 

Both for external venetian and standard blinds: Is cleaning a chore? How often?

[Russdl]

6 hours ago, puntloos said:

I don't think you can block more than 100% 😃

That’ll learn me. The point I was making was they were very very effective. 
 

I don’t recall how often we cleaned them but don’t recall it being any more arduous than other cleaning chores...

 

… on the proviso you have inwards opening windows of course otherwise I suspect it would border on the impossible. 

[jack]

6 hours ago, puntloos said:

One extra question though: 

Both for external venetian and standard blinds: Is cleaning a chore? How often?

 

It'd be a massive chore, which is why I've avoided cleaning or external venetians for 7 years so far.

 

We chose a shade of grey that really just doesn't show the dirt unless you're very close, so they look fine.

[ToughButterCup]

In ze Vaterland, zer is a sing called a Jalousiereinigungsyetm (Blinds Cleaning System) .

Zis cleans ze indeewidual blades of ze shutter or ze blind.

 

Available on Amazon here . There are many more available elsewhere.

 

Vorsprung durch Reinigung !

(Progress by buying cleaning things until the thing is cleaner than your neighbour's, thus making them jealous :

rinse , repeat)

 

On a more prosaic note, I found that a combination of a car-wheel cleaning brush and a hoover made an unpleasant job easier . Cheap. Effective. Works well outside and in.

 

Grandchildren can be bribed too.

 

[jack]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

In ze Vaterland, zer is a sing called a Jalousiereinigungsyetm (Blinds Cleaning System) .

Zis cleans ze indeewidual blades of ze shutter or ze blind.

 

Available on Amazon here . There are many more available elsewhere.

 

Vorsprung durch Reinigung !

(Progress by buying cleaning things until the thing is cleaner than your neighbour's, thus making them jealous :

rinse , repeat)

 

On a more prosaic note, I found that a combination of a car-wheel cleaning brush and a hoover made an unpleasant job easier . Cheap. Effective. Works well outside and in.

 

Grandchildren can be bribed too.

 

All of this sounds like someone looking for an easier way to do a job that I just don't have any interest in doing at all.

[puntloos]

I find it somewhat surprising none of these shutters mention "light permeability" on any of their feature page. Zee Deutsches Dirndl's 75% is the closest I could come to it.. 

[Russdl]

@puntloos are you sure? At the beginning she says somalong the lines of ‘no light gets inside’. I’ll invite @ToughButterCup back…

 

@ToughButterCup can you review that video ⬆️ up there somewhere. I think she’s saying they let no light in. Is she? It’s in German, I think you can help. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Russdl

[puntloos]

Not 101% sure, she mumbles something ahead of the critical sentence. 

But purely due to the nature of the blinds I don't think they could ever be 100%.

In particular they are built inside the frame (so they have to match the frame 101% (heh) accurately to let 0 light through)