Design critique - modern vs traditional style, and dormers...

[Lord Greyabbey]

Hi guys, 

 

So the story is, we have managed to get a site that has full planning in place, and founds in, for the below 1.5 storey house in a field.  The designs and planning were done back in 2007 so we have done some work over the summer with the original architect to update the looks and give some thought as to how to build to modern standards (probably timber frame).  Our lender will be Ecology so we are targeting a SAP rating of 88+.

 

I'm mostly happy with where we have got to, albeit still not in love with it.  Though I think that stems from the fact that I very much like our current house which is 100 years old with 10 foot high ceilings and period features.  But, that's my problem really.

 

 

 

Anyway, my main concerns are:

 

1. The amount of dormer windows - I think this stems back to the Irish thing where houses in the country are meant to look like traditional cottages.  Whilst I really dislike sloping ceilings upstairs, and dormers do at least help out a bit, I'm conscious that there are 6 of the things here, and they add complication (build and air tightness) and expense for what real gain?  Would I actually be better with say a few Velux Dormer Systems instead or in fact just simple regular Velux's?  https://www.velux.co.uk/products/space-makers/dormer

 

2. The overall design to me still feels a bit late 90's/early 2000s.  I guess I am torn between tweaking it be more "proper traditional" or more full-on modern - albeit I'm not sure how well it lends itself to the ultra modern look.  I just think from a design perspective it's a bit stuck in no-mans land.  The bottom two elevations being the ones that I can't warm to really.

 

3. I don't want to get carried away with the build.  I'm not looking for bragging rights, it's more a case of moving to the countryside for land, and having the kids horses on-site beside us.

 

I guess ultimately I'm a bit torn and procrastinating, and conscious that we also want to be building a sand arena, and stables etc, so if we can simplify the house build that could free up a few more quid for other stuff.

 

Comments and suggestions welcome!!

[joe90]

Yes I get your concern, our planners were trying to get us to have 1.5 with dormers but because of difficulty insulating them without very chunky cheeks etc we resisted (went to appeal and won 👍). Personally I think you have to be happy and not compromise (as much as possible) with what you are building. Mine is very “cottage” and that is what we wanted but not everyone’s cup of tea.  Why not drive around looking at other houses and hopefully you will find something you could copy/modify that would “float your boat”.

Edited October 27, 2022 by joe90

[Lord Greyabbey]

@joe90 A lot of stuff in the area is similar i.e. all a bit forgettable, or else moving towards the modern white render/grey window contemporary box stuff which isn't really my thing either.  Bit too clinical.

 

This recent build is popped up for sale recently outside Belfast and piqued my interest - their 3 'dormer' windows in a real cottage style finish is lovely.

 

 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

and piqued my interest

You like it?

3 minutes ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

their 3 'dormer' windows in a real cottage style finish is lovely.

Yes but not really dormers (IMO), unless the bedroom ceilings are high I bet the “dormers” are just roof embellishments. Originally we had skeilings but designed them out for simplicity of roof and insulation but from outside most would think we’d still had them.

[Lord Greyabbey]

Yes, I do like the traditional style.  Skeiling is a new term to me, but yes my thinking is along the lines of simplicity, especially when there are potentially 6 of things to consider. 

 

The big one on the front in the Home Office room, I am actually thinking the Velux Cabrio balcony could work well.  Would give me the ability to stand outside and chat on the phone whilst working!  But then you end up with quite a big expanse of boring looking roof.  The current design at least matches the eaves of the gable beside it.

 

 

Be nice to have the skills to fiddle with the design drawings yourself.

[ProDave]

My first thought is do you really want a house that big?  Not only is it big, but has some awkward shapes and is not "optimum" design in terms of build cost per square metre.

 

If the planners want 1.5 storey / room in roof, then there is not much choice other than dormers, but I do much prefer dormers like the house you pictured above where the dormer roof slopes down to the main roof without those horrible vertical side cheeks that most people fit to dormers that are awkward to build and hard to detail insulation properly. 

 

Or what we opted for was big "gable end" dormers like above the garage on your picture above.  Detail that with a roof hung from a big ridge beam, and you can pretty much get the whole of the upstairs space unencumbered by trusses etc and make good use of the space and have vaulted ceilings right up to the ridge.

[Lord Greyabbey]

@ProDave Size-wise, I don't think it is too big.  We are coming from a big old house that is probably 500+ sq ft bigger, with 5 receptions.  Anyway, the pp is already granted and founds are in the ground, so I am stuck with the outside footprint.  But yes I agree the design is quite bitty and I see what you're saying about the bigger style dormers.  Mmmm 🤔

 

I guess I am trying to work out what I can alter (ideally simplify) without having to re-apply for new permission as the wait times here are pretty horrendous.  I think I will need to bug the architect again 😬

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

Anyway, the pp is already granted and founds are in the ground, so I am stuck with the outside footprint. 

are you sure on this? surely you could always put a new planning application in for a building YOU actually want to build. as to the existing foundations then I wonder if a good SE could utilise what you've already got? 

 

if the new application fails then you can always fall back to the existing one. just a thought as the benefit of self-building is to get a house that you actually want rather than what someone else wanted 15 years ago.

[joe90]

During my long planning battle and appeal it was suggested I apply for something the council would allow but have the same footprint, downstairs as I wanted, start building and appeal the upstairs (which I won) but didn’t make me wait to get started, so, if you already have the founds in it’s only the upstairs/roof that would need altering during the lower build.

[Lord Greyabbey]

Making some good points chaps.  In fairness the T shape of the design works quite well with the outlook over the fields.  Seemingly there were objections in the past to this development so I don't feel like rocking the boat or redoing grounds works. 

 

The more i think about it, the more I think streamline the dormers to some extent, and the ones that remain try and detail towards traditional cottage feel.  I think there is just quite a lot going on, on pretty much every side of it.

 

Here's another example of 3 dormers that look good to me (traditional and unfussy) but then it is also nicely symmetrical whereas the back of mine is lob-sided. 

 

[joe90]

Going back to your first post I like the side elevation (three roof dormers ) but don’t like your front elevation (blank gable wall). Took me a while to work out your lounge is double height (correct?). To get rid of my skeilings (slopey bit) I raised the wall plate slightly and reduced the roof angle so the ridge height was the same, might work for a few of your dormers.

[Lord Greyabbey]

@joe90Yes, the room with the chimney is double height vaulted ceiling. We added the tall floor to ceiling glass and moved the chimney to the outside of the house, from the original plans.  

 

Agreed, the side with the weird gable is a bit odd, but don't forget in 3D it is stepped out, as the house is T-shaped.  (The sloped roof there being the ensuite and dressing room for the downstairs bedroom).  I might swap the stone cladding in that area for timber and just keep the chimney in stone.  Might add a bit of more interesting mix.

 

Had a quick play there, removing a rear dormer and changing the other windows to be separate sash style like the cottage above.  Don't know if the wall with the back door in it is a bit too plain now...

 

[dpmiller]

will anyone be looking at the back wall tho?

 

/ what's the orientation on the site?

Edited October 27, 2022 by dpmiller

[Lord Greyabbey]

Yeah, we will see the back wall every time we drive in! 

 

The back of the house will be looking out at the hedge and someone's field behind.  Our land is all to the front and side.

 

Edited to add, the wee jutty out roof on the below was for a car port thing at the back door, that was frankly a bit weird, so we removed that.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Lord Greyabbey

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

Seemingly there were objections in the past to this development so I don't feel like rocking the boat or redoing grounds works. 

that's fair enough but it's not rocking the boat! they can't take away the existing permission just because they think you're taking the pi$$ by applying for something different. like I said, if it fails you can just fall back to the existing permission.

 

when we bought our bungalow it had permission for a replacement bungalow on the plot. we tried our luck with a two storey large dwelling knowing that if all went pear shaped we still had the existing planning permission that we could either build or sell the plot with that in place.

 

anyway, looks like a lovely location and I'm sure you'll find something that works for you! I look forward to reading this thread and following your build with interest. best of luck. 

[Lord Greyabbey]

4 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

anyway, looks like a lovely location and I'm sure you'll find something that works for you! I look forward to reading this thread and following your build with interest. best of luck. 

 

Thank you!  It's sort of round the corner from Mr Miller above, so I'm in good company.  I don't feel like radically altering anything, just not quite 100% satisfied yet.

[joe90]

49 minutes ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

Don't know if the wall with the back door in it is a bit too plain now...

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

just not quite 100% satisfied yet.

Well it’s you that has to live there (not us!) so play with it till you are satisfied.

[MDC]

Seeing as you've invited comment, I think it looks like something of a traditional house that has been overextended. Which is odd, as it is not traditional and hasn't even been built. I wonder if that's what you can't grasp about it. If nothing else, it should start with some decent symmetry. My personal taste is for a symmetrical design with one external finishing. The other thing I don't like is too much glass, so for me I'd have the glazing to the living room by the chimney more in keeping with the rest of the design. Apart from all that is great! 

 

There you go! Good luck!

[Lord Greyabbey]

8 minutes ago, MDC said:

Seeing as you've invited comment, I think it looks like something of a traditional house that has been overextended. Which is odd, as it is not traditional and hasn't even been built. I wonder if that's what you can't grasp about it. If nothing else, it should start with some decent symmetry. My personal taste is for a symmetrical design with one external finishing. The other thing I don't like is too much glass, so for me I'd have the glazing to the living room by the chimney more in keeping with the rest of the design. Apart from all that is great! 

 

There you go! Good luck!

Thank you!  Yep, I think you've summed it up pretty well.  There is a lot going on with the design, it's somewhat bitty.  I think I'm somewhat in limbo til I solve it.  

 

The glass by the chimney - appreciate what you're saying, but that end of the house has the view right out over the fields, down a bit of a hollow and you can see Strangford Lough and the Mourne Mountains in the distance, so I wanted that as a bit of a wow factor, and the ability to walk, and stand and look out.  Plus our ponies/horses will be out in front, so be handy to keep an eye on them too!

[MDC]

1 hour ago, Lord Greyabbey said:

Thank you!  Yep, I think you've summed it up pretty well.  There is a lot going on with the design, it's somewhat bitty.  I think I'm somewhat in limbo til I solve it.  

 

The glass by the chimney - appreciate what you're saying, but that end of the house has the view right out over the fields, down a bit of a hollow and you can see Strangford Lough and the Mourne Mountains in the distance, so I wanted that as a bit of a wow factor, and the ability to walk, and stand and look out.  Plus our ponies/horses will be out in front, so be handy to keep an eye on them too!

There you go! you like those windows and have good reason too - design it from there!

[nod]

Don’t underestimate the cost 

We settled on an arts and crafts design for the roof

While they do look nice and will st your build apart from others 

Our trusses and loose rafters will cost around 12k Another thousand on lead 13 K on slates 

Laboure would cost a fortune I’ve been on it two weeks and I’m no where near finished 

I spent two days cutting birds mouths into the trusses prior to the crane arriving 

[ETC]

@Lord Greyabbey

If you’d like me to elevate the rest of the elevations let me know.

[ETC]

[Thorfun]

3 hours ago, ETC said:

That looks fab!

[ETC]

Alternative option.