Whole house water pressure boost

[iSelfBuild]

Hi Everyone,

 

Our build in Scotland suffers from low water pressure (pretty much always, there is flow but low pressure (under one bar) and actual flow - which is sometimes none existent during the day at the peak of the holiday season due to a local caravan site.

 

I have found this whole house boosting system. https://www.automatedenvironmentalsystems.co.uk/product/dab-e-sybox-e-sytank-complete-cold-water-pressure-system/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1a3KBRCYARIsABNRnxu_LBr_WYBK0AKsY1ANeLSAVq5iKrThdLdJeW5bKvKFwI2ib31ehfMaAjPiEALw_wcB

 

Has anyone come across it before, it seem a great price and product and the technical support has convinced me its a good option.

 

 

[ProDave]

Can't you just complain to Scottish Water?

[dpmiller]

big tank in the attic and a simple booster pump under it?

[craig]

The development we have moved to (Scotland) also has very poor water pressure (1 bar).

 

The builder had installed pumps but removed after a year. Scottish water aren't interested.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, craig said:

The development we have moved to (Scotland) also has very poor water pressure (1 bar).

 

The builder had installed pumps but removed after a year. Scottish water aren't interested.

Why was the pump removed after a year?

[Carrerahill]

2 hours ago, iSelfBuild said:

Hi Everyone,

 

Our build in Scotland suffers from low water pressure (pretty much always, there is flow but low pressure (under one bar) and actual flow - which is sometimes none existent during the day at the peak of the holiday season due to a local caravan site.

 

I have found this whole house boosting system. https://www.automatedenvironmentalsystems.co.uk/product/dab-e-sybox-e-sytank-complete-cold-water-pressure-system/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1a3KBRCYARIsABNRnxu_LBr_WYBK0AKsY1ANeLSAVq5iKrThdLdJeW5bKvKFwI2ib31ehfMaAjPiEALw_wcB

 

Has anyone come across it before, it seem a great price and product and the technical support has convinced me its a good option.

 

 

I have inside information on this one, not that it will be very surprising to many of you I am sure but the issue is caused primarily by new estates getting planning permission without proper consultation with the water board, so up goes another 500 homes in an area they never thought would be developed and there you have it a water main (and sewer for that matter) designed to cope with X number of homes now has to cope with X + 500. What do you expect, simple fluid dynamics.

 

They wanted to build a new distillery in Edinburgh a couple of years ago, everything was about to get approved when someone said to the client what were they going to do about water, well, they needed a supply from the local Scottish Water network... So they went away and spoke to Scottish Water about a 3 inch main for the distillery, not a chance was Scottish Waters reply, turned out the network in the area was now running at 150% of designed capacity as it was and the network could not be renewed for about another 10 years. Result - entire project was scrapped - yet the full design was there, everything was done, but no one thought to simply ask - where will the water come from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Surely the Water Board are a statutory consulted? So if they have not responded adequately...

[craig]

16 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Why was the pump removed after a year?

 

Apparently Scottish water had addressed concerns.

[iSelfBuild]

They only guarantee one bar or so where their pipework stops. There is a private supply running from the lower site to ours. 

 

Supply comes in at 72m above sea level where they guarantee one bar. Our plot is 94m above sea level. 

 

I think this seems a pretty easy plug and play system. I could do a holding tank, pump and pressure vessels but it looks like it would work out way more expensive. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by iSelfBuild

[Carrerahill]

19 minutes ago, craig said:

 

Apparently Scottish water had addressed concerns.

Ah got you, I thought they were just removed for some reason - the water board won't want the pump creating a vacuum on their system for many reasons, for example damage can occur to seals which need pressure to seal and another is negative pressure in the network can lead to ingress of contaminants.

[Carrerahill]

25 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Surely the Water Board are a statutory consulted? So if they have not responded adequately...

Not always, you would be surprised at the complete lack of logic applied between planning, BC, and utility boards.

 

Some of the examples of total incompetence I witness with regard to this sort of thing would have you in tears.

[Jeremy Harris]

One fix for this is to fit a big accumulator, with a pump that's arranged to turn on whenever the incoming pressure exceeds a set lower threshold.  This avoids the problem of the main being subject to excessive suction.  The required non return valves on the incoming main prevent backflow, and with luck you can maintain the accumulator at a reasonably high pressure through the dips in the supply pressure during the day, when other users cause the mains pressure to drop.

 

The big advantage with an accumulator is that it's sealed, so there is no risk of contamination as there would be with an open tank and pump, so there's no need for any additional water disinfection.

[iSelfBuild]

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/topic/15814-boosting-water-pressure-whole-house-supply/page__hl__ boosting water

 

Found my old thread! Geeez this project has dragged out!

Edited June 22, 2017 by iSelfBuild

[ProDave]

Ah I remember it now. That packages solution will work, until there's no pressure to refill the break tank.

 

Did we discuss in that previous thread a break tank where Scottish Waters's suppl enters and a pump from there?

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

Ah got you, I thought they were just removed for some reason - the water board won't want the pump creating a vacuum on their system for many reasons, for example damage can occur to seals which need pressure to seal and another is negative pressure in the network can lead to ingress of contaminants.

Doing that in my neck of the woods will see you getting severely prosecuted. 

Any builder / other 'well intentioned' putting a cold mains booster pump directly onto the cold mains is just an uneducated If you have poor mains pressure and flow then you won't necessarily use more water per day, it's just you'd like some reasonable performance whilst doing so. For eg, filling the bath takes the same amount, filled quickly or slowly.  

To achieve this you need the cold main getting fed into break tanks ( so disconnecting the incoming main from consumer consumption ) which a pump then 'sucks' water from. Then you fit a buffer ( usually a cold mains accumulator of suitable size ) to allow the pump to pressurise the accumulator thus creating an artificial cold mains system for the property.

As pumps are very harsh in their delivery, usually starting at just above 1 bar and shutting off again at 3 bar, a buffer is required to smooth out the delivery to make it tolerable, and typically the system would be set up to store the pressurised water at around 2.5-3 bar to best take advantage of the accumulator ( charging it with sufficient stored volume vs back / pre-charge pressure ), but this does provide a very good means of boosting very poor mains to acceptable performance without breaking any water bylaws. 

Dont underestimate the required volume of cold water break tanks as any shortfall there will see the pump running dry or the supplied water getting unacceptably aerated.

As always, it's requirement first and design / solution second. 

[Jeremy Harris]

As I suggested, you can trigger the pump from the pressure in the mains, to make sure that it never takes the mains supply down below a set pressure whilst it's charging the accumulator.  This presents no risk of putting suction on the mains supply, as the power to the pump system will be cut off when the mains pressure drops below a set low level.

 

It just needs two pump control pressure switches, one on the mains supply that's wired to enable power to the system, the other on the accumulator side, fitted in the normal way as a demand switch to turn the pump on and off.  It goes without saying that the mandatory NRVs are needed in the mains side,

 

This avoids the need for a break tank, and so also avoids the need for subsequent disinfection.  I don't like the idea of break tanks if they can be avoided, as they create a whole raft of additional potential safety issues, if used for potable water.  Any open tank will remove the residual water chlorination, that keeps mains water stored in sealed pipes and tanks safe from bacterial contamination.  The chances are that, sooner or later, a break tank will end up getting contaminated, and that means that to be safe, downstream disinfection should be fitted.

 

This doesn't apply to large sealed accumulators, as they retain the residual disinfection agent (usually chlorine) and so keep the stored water safe.

[Nickfromwales]

In the eyes of the water authority, here, you cannot fit a pump directly to the main unless it's designed to not pump at or in excess of 11-12 litres per min ( or basically whatever rate your local water board has to supply by law ). With a large domestic property the metabolism of the cold break tanks means that downstream disinfection isn't required. I checked for my last such job, and the only requirement was the A-B bylaw air break from the incoming cold main to the stored water in the tank. 

The system performs really well with the only problem being excessive use due to the customer thinking that I'd now somehow connected them to the local reservoir  and they had an infinite supply of high pressure water. A bit of education later and they were good to go. 

I don't see how the pressure switch on the mains would work tbh as the second the pump kicked in you'd lose the static pressure ( in the poorest of mains ) switching the pump back off. That would see a stop-start scenario so I'm unsure about that one. 

The Grunfoss home booster will just keep sucking until it's vessel is satisfied, so that isn't a good example afaic. No home-brew solutions can be used for this, as they have to be approved or comply with current regs / bylaws. 

[Carrerahill]

9 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Doing that in my neck of the woods will see you getting severely prosecuted. 

Any builder / other 'well intentioned' putting a cold mains booster pump directly onto the cold mains is just an uneducated If you have poor mains pressure and flow then you won't necessarily use more water per day, it's just you'd like some reasonable performance whilst doing so. For eg, filling the bath takes the same amount, filled quickly or slowly.  

To achieve this you need the cold main getting fed into break tanks ( so disconnecting the incoming main from consumer consumption ) which a pump then 'sucks' water from. Then you fit a buffer ( usually a cold mains accumulator of suitable size ) to allow the pump to pressurise the accumulator thus creating an artificial cold mains system for the property.

As pumps are very harsh in their delivery, usually starting at just above 1 bar and shutting off again at 3 bar, a buffer is required to smooth out the delivery to make it tolerable, and typically the system would be set up to store the pressurised water at around 2.5-3 bar to best take advantage of the accumulator ( charging it with sufficient stored volume vs back / pre-charge pressure ), but this does provide a very good means of boosting very poor mains to acceptable performance without breaking any water bylaws. 

Dont underestimate the required volume of cold water break tanks as any shortfall there will see the pump running dry or the supplied water getting unacceptably aerated.

As always, it's requirement first and design / solution second. 

Did you reply to the right post? My post was confirming water board will not want anyone "pumping" from the network after Craig confirmed it was Scottish Water who had the concerns and the builder then removed the pumps.

[Nickfromwales]

Yes, it wasn't a dig just an additional statement . 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

In the eyes of the water authority, here, you cannot fit a pump directly to the main unless it's designed to not pump at or in excess of 11-12 litres per min ( or basically whatever rate your local water board has to supply by law ). With a large domestic property the metabolism of the cold break tanks means that downstream disinfection isn't required. I checked for my last such job, and the only requirement was the A-B bylaw air break from the incoming cold main to the stored water in the tank. 

The system performs really well with the only problem being excessive use due to the customer thinking that I'd now somehow connected them to the local reservoir  and they had an infinite supply of high pressure water. A bit of education later and they were good to go. 

I don't see how the pressure switch on the mains would work tbh as the second the pump kicked in you'd lose the static pressure ( in the poorest of mains ) switching the pump back off. That would see a stop-start scenario so I'm unsure about that one. 

The Grunfoss home booster will just keep sucking until it's vessel is satisfied, so that isn't a good example afaic. No home-brew solutions can be used for this, as they have to be approved or comply with current regs / bylaws. 

 

 

The system I've seen on a farm just used a NC pressure switch after the incoming NRV, and before the second NRV, to sense near enough the true pressure at the main.  If this pressure dropped below a set figure, then that switch would open and stop the pressure set on the house side from operating.  This positively prevents the pressure set from reducing the pressure in the main, keeping the water company happy.  As soon as the temporary drop on the mains pressure stops, power is restored to the pressure set to charge the accumulator if it needs it.  It complies with the regs and works OK when there is an intermittent mains pressure fluctuation on the supply side (in the case in question is was the milking shed that used to drop the mains pressure during wash down).

[iSelfBuild]

Hey, how are you keeping @Nickfromwales ?

 

Update on this one, my dad is ordering the all in one unit from DAB. We are guaranteed a water supply to the unit so it will never stop fully. I think it's getting to the stage now he just wants a quick plug and play solution and it's a nice little compact unit. Probably fit a UV water filter in line as well.

[Nickfromwales]

14 minutes ago, iSelfBuild said:

Hey, how are you keeping @Nickfromwales ?

Slightly older, but sadly not much wiser

There's a lot to like about plug n play. These solutions can soon start to escalate so best to at least try the first possible ( and easier ) option first tbh .