UVC in basement plant room but no drainage for overflow

[Thorfun]

hello, looking at plumbing stuff at the moment and from reading on here it seems that a UVC requires and outlet for the overflow and they run into the waste pipes somewhere. our problem is that our plant room is in the basement and the only soil pipes are running at basement ceiling level which is about 3m above the floor level.

 

if I really do need a way for the UVC overflow to go to soil pipe I'm a bit stuff from what I can see. or is it possible to run the overflow into a sump chamber of sorts and then pump it up to the soil pipe?

 

we were also thinking of water softener but that also needs an outlet from the reading I've done so that has now been put to one side unless I can find a place for it on the ground floor. but, maybe I can also run the outlet from that to a sump in the plant room and pump it out and kill 2 birds with one stone? but the UVC is the most pressing question as if I can't pump it then I need to find a place for it on the ground floor. 😞

 

if I had my time again I'd run a 110mm pipe from the plant room to our courtyard sump which collect water from the land drain around the basement. but no professional I had on board ever mentioned that I'd need an overflow from the plant room. it's a bit late for all that now though so I need to find a solution.

[TonyT]

https://www.bes.co.uk/high-temperature-pressure-relief-pump-23745/?q=23745
 

what about one of these

[Pocster]

You got no perimeter drain ?

Uvc overflow could just go into a simple pump to drain …

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

https://www.bes.co.uk/high-temperature-pressure-relief-pump-23745/?q=23745
 

what about one of these

£768 +VAT!! 🤯 there's gotta be a cheaper way. for that cost I'll find a place on the ground floor for the UVC. I'm sure I can find a cupboard somewhere.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

You got no perimeter drain ?

Uvc overflow could just go into a simple pump to drain …

I have a land drain around the basement but that's now 3.5m below ground level and buried under tons of backfill.

[Iceverge]

Sump and pump is your way out I think. 

 

If you have MVHR you'll need a condensate drain from that too. 

 

As you're at it I would raise the UVC+plumbing over a drip pan like the Americans do. That way if you have any leaks or burst pipes it'll fail to a safe situation and notify destroy your basement. 

 

It's firmly near the top of "I wish I'd done that" list. 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

https://www.bes.co.uk/high-temperature-pressure-relief-pump-23745/?q=23745
 

what about one of these

ps. sorry, I didn't mean to sound ungrateful! thank you for the link and it has given me something to research. I was just shocked at the cost of that solution as I thought it'd be a simple and cheap thing.

[Thorfun]

9 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Sump and pump is your way out I think. 

 

If you have MVHR you'll need a condensate drain from that too. 

 

As you're at it I would raise the UVC+plumbing over a drip pan like the Americans do. That way if you have any leaks or burst pipes it'll fail to a safe situation and notify destroy your basement. 

 

It's firmly near the top of "I wish I'd done that" list. 

our MVHR doesn't need a condensate drain as it's got an enthalpy jobby.

 

I will do more reading on the sump and pump but from what little I've done so far it seems that the temperature of the water could be the issue.

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, pocster said:

Uvc overflow could just go into a simple pump to drain …

Nope.. has to be capable of taking boiling water and moving water at full mains flow which is why you tend to use gravity to clear it.  
 

26 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

sump and pump but from what little I've done so far it seems that the temperature of the water could be the issue.

Yep doesn’t meet G3.

 

Have you bought the UVC..? And what is the heat source..? A thermal store may be the get out of jail card if you can get it hot enough

[Pocster]

8 hours ago, PeterW said:

Nope.. has to be capable of taking boiling water and moving water at full mains flow which is why you tend to use gravity to clear it.  

Is there simply no pump that can cope with that ??

[Pocster]

9 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I have a land drain around the basement but that's now 3.5m below ground level and buried under tons of backfill.

So what’s your method for dealing with water potential ingress ? . I can’t remember the make up of your basement structure .

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, PeterW said:

Have you bought the UVC..? And what is the heat source..? A thermal store may be the get out of jail card if you can get it hot enough

already have the UVC a Mitsubishi pre-plumed 300l cylinder. the heat source is an ASHP (Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5kW).

 

I presume you're talking about SunAmps when you refer to thermal stores? I think the financial cost of trying to sell the UVC second hand and moving to Sunamp would be greater than buying one of those units @TonyT linked above. although, I guess the yearly service savings might help.

 

[Thorfun]

22 minutes ago, pocster said:

So what’s your method for dealing with water potential ingress ? . I can’t remember the make up of your basement structure .

we have 2 forms of waterproofing, an external membrane and waterproof concrete. plus the land drain at the base of the basement externally will help I guess.

[Pocster]

11 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

we have 2 forms of waterproofing, an external membrane and waterproof concrete. plus the land drain at the base of the basement externally will help I guess.

No sunken garden or basement patio doors ? . Just trying to think if you could get a pipe from uvc to outdoor but below ground space .

[Thorfun]

7 minutes ago, pocster said:

No sunken garden or basement patio doors ? . Just trying to think if you could get a pipe from uvc to outdoor but below ground space .

yeah, we have a sunken courtyard with patio doors but it's a long way from the plant room to those doors/courtyard to get a fall and we've already laid the UFH and screed so can't start digging into that to run a pipe. like I said, with hindsight I'd have planned for this before the basement was built had my architect ever mentioned the need for drainage from the plant room.

[Pocster]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yeah, we have a sunken courtyard with patio doors but it's a long way from the plant room to those doors/courtyard to get a fall and we've already laid the UFH and screed so can't start digging into that to run a pipe. like I said, with hindsight I'd have planned for this before the basement was built had my architect ever mentioned the need for drainage from the plant room.

No chance of getting a pipe in the wall studding ? . Only need a slight fall .

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

with hindsight I'd have planned for this before the basement was built had my architect ever mentioned the need for drainage from the plant room.

It’s impossible to know everything in advance . As you point out your architect didn’t even mention it .

Assuming there are no other possible routes then the only solution is a pump of some sort . We all ‘miss’ things due to lack of hindsight - I should know ! 😁

[Thorfun]

22 minutes ago, pocster said:

No chance of getting a pipe in the wall studding ? . Only need a slight fall .

hmmm.....this might be possible although there is no wall studding just yet but I could plan it in. any idea what size waste pipe we'd need? and what sort of fall?  then I'd need to figure a potential route and also would need to drill through the basement courtyard wall from inside and figure out a route to get the waste pipe to the outside of the courtyard wall.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Is there simply no pump that can cope with that ??

Yes - they are about £800 each …. 

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

any idea what size waste pipe we'd need? and what sort of fall?  then I'd need to figure a potential route and also would need to drill through the basement courtyard wall from inside and figure out a route to get the waste pipe to the outside of the courtyard wall.

It is all in the G3 regs - you need to use a pipe suitable for D2 discharge and it has to be set to the correct falls etc. Personally with a long distance I would use 28mm copper - not cheap but works very well and is fit and forget

[PeterW]

25 minutes ago, pocster said:

It’s impossible to know everything in advance . As you point out your architect didn’t even mention it .

it is why you do an M&E design as part of a build - so you don’t end up with the issue of pipes trying to go up hill, or through steels, or wastes below drain level  

[Thorfun]

Just now, PeterW said:

It is all in the G3 regs - you need to use a pipe suitable for D2 discharge and it has to be set to the correct falls etc. Personally with a long distance I would use 28mm copper - not cheap but works very well and is fit and forget

thanks. I wonder with the cost of the copper pipe and labour how close to the £800 for the pump it'd get?

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

already have the UVC a Mitsubishi pre-plumed 300l cylinder. the heat source is an ASHP (Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5kW).

 

I presume you're talking about SunAmps when you refer to thermal stores? I

nope talking about a thermal store ie hot water but needs to be 72°C plus and usually fired by gas or oil boiler so a non starter for you

[Thorfun]

Just now, PeterW said:

it is why you do an M&E design as part of a build - so you don’t end up with the issue of pipes trying to go up hill, or through steels, or wastes below drain level  

had a Civil engineering company design the drainage and whenever I asked about internal waste their stock answer was 'that's an internal plumbing issue'. I also had an M&E company design my heating/solar/MVHR systems but never once did they mention a waste pipe for the UVC. they said I didn't need one for the MVHR due to the enthalpy unit but didn't mention requiring one for the UVC that they designed to go in to the plant room in the basement.

 

that's what's got me so grumpy, I paid for professionals to help and design and still it got missed!

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

nope talking about a thermal store ie hot water but needs to be 72°C plus and usually fired by gas or oil boiler so a non starter for you

ok. thanks. will look into the pipe run (although I think getting it outside the basement courtyard walls to the granular backfill might be troublesome with 3m of backfill above where the hole will go) and do some financial calculations and then make a choice.