Hep2o (Hep20) Information

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

I still don't know why the transition to copper. It seems to be common practice (see below) but I'm in the dark ( @Nickfromwales )?

 

Because you cannot put plastic pipe into compression fittings. You could however use Hep2O 1/2” or 3/4” BSP male / female fittings which accept Hep2O pipe directly. 

[Nickfromwales]

https://www.screwfix.com/p/hep2o-plastic-push-fit-adapting-male-coupler-15mm-x-/5970F?kpid=5970F&ds_kid=92700055281954514&ds_rl=1249404&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvdOO8-DB-AIVkmDmCh2yTQeaEAQYASABEgL_uPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[MortarThePoint]

38 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Because you cannot put plastic pipe into compression fittings. You could however use Hep2O 1/2” or 3/4” BSP male / female fittings which accept Hep2O pipe directly. 

 

Is that one of those things where the brochure says you can but experience says you can't?

 

[Nickfromwales]

It is the worst, sack of shit advice, any manufacturer could have given anyone. 
Categorically avoid doing this, please.

 

If Hepworth has a bad point, it’s in giving that bit of naff information. They’d do a LOT better just posting a link to the fitting I showed you. 🙄

[MortarThePoint]

58 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

It is the worst, sack of shit advice, any manufacturer could have given anyone. 
Categorically avoid doing this, please.

 

If Hepworth has a bad point, it’s in giving that bit of naff information. They’d do a LOT better just posting a link to the fitting I showed you. 🙄

 

Thanks. Classic example of the difference between (book) knowledge and experience. I would have walked straight into that one.

[Onoff]

On 18/06/2022 at 16:24, Nickfromwales said:

Domestic never sees north of 5bar tbh.

 

8bar here as previously measured and mentioned, now tamed with a pressure reducing valve.

 

Unusual I guess but an old smallholding in farming country at the end of a remote valley.

 

 

 

 

[MortarThePoint]

On 21/06/2022 at 21:16, Nickfromwales said:

Normally a couple of bends and then copper tails projecting out at 150mm c’s is fine. For a bar mixer you’ll need a fast / easy fit kit to mount the shower with, as with this approach h you’ll be binning the supplied cranked 1/2”x3/4” fittings.

LINK

 

I think this all works out as first fix being as the image below. It's pretty tight to drill the screw holes for the wall mount fixing kit.

 

 

 

[dpmiller]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

It is the worst, sack of shit advice, any manufacturer could have given anyone. 
Categorically avoid doing this, please.

 

If Hepworth has a bad point, it’s in giving that bit of naff information. They’d do a LOT better just posting a link to the fitting I showed you. 🙄

why? Data please...

[Nickfromwales]

8 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

8bar here as previously measured and mentioned, now tamed with a pressure reducing valve.

 

Unusual I guess but an old smallholding in farming country at the end of a remote valley.

 

 

 

 

I meant after survey and the resultant ‘correct’ installation. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

why? Data please...

Life of plumbing and seeing these fail. 
Splitting hairs, it’s not every one that will leak, but how many potential points of failure do you install on the basis of “it SHOULD be ok”?

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

 

I think this all works out as first fix being as the image below. It's pretty tight to drill the screw holes for the wall mount fixing kit.

 

 

 

Spot on. 👍

[MortarThePoint]

14 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Spot on. 👍

 

If I make the holes in the OSB/plasterboard 19mm and have the clip holding the Hep2O pipe about 150mm up from the holes it should leave a couple of mm wriggle room in each direction which will be nice.

[dpmiller]

20 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Life of plumbing and seeing these fail. 
Splitting hairs, it’s not every one that will leak, but how many potential points of failure do you install on the basis of “it SHOULD be ok”?

 

ok, so back to data and not anecdotes... What's the failure mode- olive eating into the pipe? Numpties not using an insert?

[MortarThePoint]

45 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

 

ok, so back to data and not anecdotes... What's the failure mode- olive eating into the pipe? Numpties not using an insert?

 

I'm content to avoid anything that someone with more experience than me is concerned by.

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, dpmiller said:

 

ok, so back to data and not anecdotes... What's the failure mode- olive eating into the pipe? Numpties not using an insert?

My apologies 🙄. 
Yes, olive eating into pipe, and the fact that the whole functionality of the olive is to compress onto something rigid, which reinforces by design how it is lunacy to turn / tighten it into soft plastic. The plastic cannot offer any opposing force so just gets displaced. The nut gets tightened until ‘someone’ decides it’s “tight enough” and the resultant joint is a compromise even before you’ve put water in the pipe.

 

The issue of the insert being used ( or not ) is of zero relevance, as nobody here can compensate or advise against idiots not following instructions. However, when the instruction is to do something poorly, and it comes from the manufacturer, go figure.

 

I’ll not defend that any further, just a plumber on the tools for 3 decades stating what’s shite, and why. That’s impartial and free advise, given on a take it or leave it basis.   

[dpmiller]

Thank you.

 

/this must be the only occasion I've ever seen a member of Buildhub royalty state NOT to follow MIs but hey, we all gotta live eh?

[Iceverge]

I managed 5  x plastic Hep + olives into brass fittings on my UVC install,  too late to see the above advice.

 

It's been ok..........

 

So far............

 

~~rushes hurriedly to the UVC to check for impending disaster~~

[MortarThePoint]

12 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

My apologies 🙄. 
Yes, olive eating into pipe, and the fact that the whole functionality of the olive is to compress onto something rigid, which reinforces by design how it is lunacy to turn / tighten it into soft plastic. The plastic cannot offer any opposing force so just gets displaced. The nut gets tightened until ‘someone’ decides it’s “tight enough” and the resultant joint is a compromise even before you’ve put water in the pipe.

 

The issue of the insert being used ( or not ) is of zero relevance, as nobody here can compensate or advise against idiots not following instructions. However, when the instruction is to do something poorly, and it comes from the manufacturer, go figure.

 

I’ll not defend that any further, just a plumber on the tools for 3 decades stating what’s shite, and why. That’s impartial and free advise, given on a take it or leave it basis.   

 

I'd love to use compression fittings for all sorts, particularly isolation valves as the Hep2o ones look rubbish and are expensive (£7 Vs 70p), but not at the cost of introducing a possible issue.

 

I guess there is little point in being able to isolate a basin or shower inside a room if I can isolate the whole room at the main manifold.

[crispy_wafer]

Been following this very closely, taking notes along your journey, I dont see the point in isolating locally, think it's overkill, as long as the manifold is accessible easily.  Changing Tap's or washers or flush components down the line it wont be too much of a hardship to pass by the manifold on the way to the job...

[Iceverge]

Agreed. 

 

I think if the main stopcock is accessible then you're fine. 

 

It's very quick to pop in a blanking peg when you need to spend more time fixing something. 

 

 

[MJNewton]

19 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

I think if the main stopcock is accessible then you're fine. 

 

Yes, and it's always good to have a forced excuse to exercise the stopcock once in a while. 

[MortarThePoint]

I agree no point in having isolation valves as long as it's not a regulations requirement like it appears to be in the US.

[MortarThePoint]

Some useful sound data in this paper. Looks like it is worth keeping the flow velocity under 1m/s.

Pipe size    1.0m/s           1.5m/s

10mm        2.2 L/min      3.3 L/min

15mm        6.0 L/min      9.0 L/min

22mm        15 L/min       23 L/min

28mm        24L/min       36 L/min

 

[MortarThePoint]

I think that is elbow dominated and using bends instead has a big reduction in sound levels. They were targeting 30dB(A) or less and the AluPEX 16mm bends were able to satisfy that at even 4m/s. AluPEX is the closest thing they have to Hep2O.

 

  

[MortarThePoint]