Small claims for metal roofing defects?

[DragsterDriver]

Morning, I wasn’t sure where to post this but the zinc/metal roofer has messed my dormers up beyond repair. He was paid in full before the film was removed (yes I know!).

I invited both directors to site and view the defects and put them right, they turned up and said it was an A1 job so it looks like small claims (daunting). I’ve had the independent expert out to do a report and take pictures before it’s removed (he’s condemned it all).

 

have I done everything correctly?

been polite.

offered a chance to correct it.

got an independent expert in.

 

I need to move on with a new contractor so I can get windows in etc.

 

big PITA.

[SimonD]

I don't suppose you can show photos?

 

Have you been back to the installers to show them the report? I would provide a copy of the report together with a strong letter carefully worded to provide them with a final opportunity to reconsider their position and to give their proposal for rectification in accordance with the report within a reasonable amount of time. Explain that unless they do provide a satisfactory proposal for rectification you intend to proceed with rectification by another installer and will seek damages from them.

 

The other thing to consider is if they're members of any builder's/roofer's trade organisation which has a complaints process. Although I would advise caution here as a number of years ago I did this and found the organisation to be as corrupt as the trademan I was dealing with (they exist for subsciption revenue not the customer). However, if the avenue is available, and you haven't explored it first, the court will not look favourably on you because the civil procedure rules require you to exhaust all options to resolve the problem before taking legal action.

 

Do get yourself some legal advice and help. Once upon a time the courts used to be fairly good and permissive with litigants in person but in more recent times, I've found the courts and judges to be hostile to litigants in person and they will make you pay for any minor procedural infraction (both district and circuit judges, but district judges seemed to have become the worst) - years ago they tended to be more flexible and helpful.

[DragsterDriver]

[DragsterDriver]

[DragsterDriver]

[DragsterDriver]

5 hours ago, SimonD said:

I don't suppose you can show photos?

 

Have you been back to the installers to show them the report? I would provide a copy of the report together with a strong letter carefully worded to provide them with a final opportunity to reconsider their position and to give their proposal for rectification in accordance with the report within a reasonable amount of time. Explain that unless they do provide a satisfactory proposal for rectification you intend to proceed with rectification by another installer and will seek damages from them.

 

The other thing to consider is if they're members of any builder's/roofer's trade organisation which has a complaints process. Although I would advise caution here as a number of years ago I did this and found the organisation to be as corrupt as the trademan I was dealing with (they exist for subsciption revenue not the customer). However, if the avenue is available, and you haven't explored it first, the court will not look favourably on you because the civil procedure rules require you to exhaust all options to resolve the problem before taking legal action.

 

Do get yourself some legal advice and help. Once upon a time the courts used to be fairly good and permissive with litigants in person but in more recent times, I've found the courts and judges to be hostile to litigants in person and they will make you pay for any minor procedural infraction (both district and circuit judges, but district judges seemed to have become the worst) - years ago they tended to be more flexible and helpful.

Thanks for the reply-

 

i would imagine the roofers are going to ‘wait me out’ knowing I can’t proceed with the inside or cladding externally until the windows are in (after the dormer metal).

 

the report will be with me this week, but the entire thing needs stripping and I doubt these clowns have the ability to do the job properly. 
 

They don’t belong to any professional bodies.

 

I'm probably gambling that any judge at small claims isn’t blind and can see the issues. 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by DragsterDriver

[Mr Punter]

It certainly isn't pretty and some is decidedly rough.  Was the substrate all good?  I looks like some cables etc are showing through but the damage may have happened elsewhere.  The court will take an age.  How annoying!  Is there an amount of money you would settle for?

[DragsterDriver]

16 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

It certainly isn't pretty and some is decidedly rough.  Was the substrate all good?  I looks like some cables etc are showing through but the damage may have happened elsewhere.  The court will take an age.  How annoying!  Is there an amount of money you would settle for?

the substrate is brand new dormers, 18mm ply on 25mm battens for ventilation- which they’ve blocked at the top.

 

the ‘bobbly’ bits are where they rolled out the metal on an mot/gravel drive- so the wife tells me.

 

I want/need all of the money I paid back because the whole lot needs to be removed and skipped, to be redone by somebody else. If it drags on it’ll mean they also incur scaffold costs etc…but they I’m sure know I need it resolved asap hence getting the independent witness to do a report and take lots of pictures. 
 

very annoying indeed- if it wasn’t my number one dream item on the want list I’d replace it with some black vertical cladding or something.

 

it actually looks worse in the flesh which takes some believing.

[Mr Punter]

Get 2 or 3 quotes to replace it.  Ask them what they think of the job.  Bear in mind worse case you could end up paying twice, plus court fees and expert witness.  Best case you get the job done correctly and just a bit out of pocket and ball ache.

[Russdl]

@DragsterDriver good grief, that looks grim. I would have thought those photos alongside the independent report would be good enough to go to the Small Claims Court with, not sure you’d need expert witnesses, just images of how it should be done. 
 

Have you got someone lined up to replace it?

[markc]

Either that would be visible with the film on or they purposely pulled the film and re applied stretching over the dents.

obviously not bird damage or scaffold stripping so you should have no problem claiming poor workmanship

Edited May 8, 2022 by markc

[DragsterDriver]

25 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Get 2 or 3 quotes to replace it.  Ask them what they think of the job.  Bear in mind worse case you could end up paying twice, plus court fees and expert witness.  Best case you get the job done correctly and just a bit out of pocket and ball ache.

a couple of companies have had a look and were speechless- whether they can fit me in before September-ish is another story. I don’t mind them quoting more money as long as I get the previous amount back.

[DragsterDriver]

11 minutes ago, Russdl said:

@DragsterDriver good grief, that looks grim. I would have thought those photos alongside the independent report would be good enough to go to the Small Claims Court with, not sure you’d need expert witnesses, just images of how it should be done. 
 

Have you got someone lined up to replace it?

The independent report is done by probably the only expert in the U.K. 

He’ll detail all the cosmetic and structural faults with the work along with his own pictures not my iPhone ones

 

 

[DragsterDriver]

7 minutes ago, markc said:

Either that would be visible with the film on or they purposely pulled the film and re applied stretching over the dents.

pits obviously not bird damage or scaffold stripping so you should have no problem claiming poor workmanship

there’s no scaffold above, but it’s not just the cosmetics, the way it’s flashed etc is wrong and allows water ingress, no abutments, no top ventilation etc. 

[SteamyTea]

That is rough.

Taking a guess that they have never fitted it before.

Is that something you can check out?

 

Plan for the worse, hope for the best.

Edited May 8, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Temp]

I think to be safe you have to give them an "opportunity to rectify" the problem. You did that by inviting them to come and look but in court they  might make up some story and say they did agree to fix but you got someone else to do it while they were waiting for parts to arrive. 

 

If you haven't already done so I would write recorded delivery with a copy of the report/list of work that needs doing and giving them a date in two weeks to agree a plan and timescale to sort it. Keep a copy. You can say in the letter If they haven't responded by that date you will get the work done elsewhere and seek to recover costs.

[DragsterDriver]

14 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

That is rough.

Taking a guess that they have never fitted it before.

Is that something you can check out?

 

Plan for the worse, hope for the best.

They’ve been trading 40yrs.

[DragsterDriver]

5 hours ago, Temp said:

I think to be safe you have to give them an "opportunity to rectify" the problem. You did that by inviting them to come and look but in court they  might make up some story and say they did agree to fix but you got someone else to do it while they were waiting for parts to arrive. 

 

If you haven't already done so I would write recorded delivery with a copy of the report/list of work that needs doing and giving them a date in two weeks to agree a plan and timescale to sort it. Keep a copy. You can say in the letter If they haven't responded by that date you will get the work done elsewhere and seek to recover costs.

This was my last exchange with them after both directors came to see the issues (they stayed 5 minutes and said it was an A1 job).

 

“xxx, thanks for coming out and viewing the issues with the completed work. As you've stated there are no faults and declined the opportunity to rectify any I feel are present. I'll obtain an independent report and proceed from there”

 

 

[Temp]

I'd still write giving them final opportunity with deadline..

 

https://gw.legal/articles/building-claims-how-to-challenge-shoddy-building-work

 

 

[SimonD]

As @Temp suggests, send them a copy of the report with a clearly set out rectification list that you require them to resolve and ask for a response within a given time - e.g. 14days.

 

Unfortunately, if you have to make a claim in court you will need to play the game to really show that they were not willing to sort out the problem. At the moment, they could quite easily just sit there in court and say you didn't give them an opportunity to resolve the problems, that in their view it was all good and you didn't give the them the report and a list of the problems. \They could even argue that you didn't give them the opportunity to obtain an independent report themselves. Why do I know this? I've been in court with a lying toad that despite all my evidence and a surveyors report, slimed his way out of it. Out of a claim of thousands of pounds he got away with it apart from £600 which I then didn't even see because of all the various court/surveyor costs.

 

Hence, why you need to at the very least have a conversation with a solicitor who will guide you - and sometimes, just getting the solicitor to write the letter for you will tip the problem in your favour by showing that you mean business.

 

If this is that important to you, don't try to do this DIY. Have you looked at any insurance policy you might have that covers legal costs?

 

BTW, that workmanship looks super terrible and shoddy! It looks like they bent the cladding by hand. I dread to think what the underlying detailing like flashings, trims and aprons is like!

Edited May 9, 2022 by SimonD

[DragsterDriver]

52 minutes ago, Temp said:

I'd still write giving them final opportunity with deadline..

 

https://gw.legal/articles/building-claims-how-to-challenge-shoddy-building-work

 

 

will do!

19 minutes ago, SimonD said:

As @Temp suggests, send them a copy of the report with a clearly set out rectification list that you require them to resolve and ask for a response within a given time - e.g. 14days.

 

Unfortunately, if you have to make a claim in court you will need to play the game to really show that they were not willing to sort out the problem. At the moment, they could quite easily just sit there in court and say you didn't give them an opportunity to resolve the problems, that in their view it was all good and you didn't give the them the report and a list of the problems. \They could even argue that you didn't give them the opportunity to obtain an independent report themselves. Why do I know this? I've been in court with a lying toad that despite all my evidence and a surveyors report, slimed his way out of it. Out of a claim of thousands of pounds he got away with it apart from £600 which I then didn't even see because of all the various court/surveyor costs.

 

Hence, why you need to at the very least have a conversation with a solicitor who will guide you - and sometimes, just getting the solicitor to write the letter for you will tip the problem in your favour by showing that you mean business.

 

If this is that important to you, don't try to do this DIY. Have you looked at any insurance policy you might have that covers legal costs?

 

BTW, that workmanship looks super terrible and shoddy! It looks like they bent the cladding by hand. I dread to think what the underlying detailing like flashings, trims and aprons is like!

I need to speak to a solicitor- they’re clearly confident they can ‘wait me out’ or slide out of it. Sadly your experience is what I fear!

[Temp]

+1

 

Everything has to be by the book or they will find some way to wriggle out. 

 

I would also avoid writing any negative reviews online until after any court case.

 

 

[Shire2020]

Sorry to see these pictures, looks shocking and hope there is a quick resolution somewhere.