Appeal Dismissed, challenge it or cut my losses?

[Claire B]

After over 2 years and 100k (excluding land purchase price) my appeal has been dismissed. Planning consultant has shown the decision to a solicitor who thinks we have 'reasonable grounds to challenge the inspectors decision' but the cost to do so likely to be £15-20K. Does anyone know what percentage of these (s288 challenges) win? I tried an online search but couldn't find anything. Even if we win we just win the opportunity to have another planning inspector make a decision which might be another dismissal. If I quit now I'm left with a very expensive folly I don't know what to do with (but save myself another huge expense). Brief backstory...

 

Bought the land (4 acres with old 4 animal buildings on it- breeze block and render) about 20 years ago in the village (rural, not green belt) I live.
Wanted to convert one of the buildings into a 1 bed live/work unit for my son.

Tried the class Q route but council weren't satisfied the buildings were used agriculturally so that failed. 

Put full planning application in, council didn't like some bits, roof height & solar panels so we withdrew application and submitted a new one having dealt with the things they didn't like. 

Refused on 'sustainability' grounds, you'd need a car to live there (I'd argue you wouldn't nowadays with online shopping and remote working) and their other reason being that the office was big enough to be a bedroom and they think thats what it would be used as and as such the building wouldn't be big enough to be a 2 bed. 

I appealed and it's been dismissed. 'Site not suitable' and no way they can prevent the office being turned into a bedroom.

Lots of objection from people in the village (their back gardens border the land), I would love to get the permission just to wipe the smug looks from their faces but I could spend the 20k on something else. If I quit now it's game over, the site wouldn't get planning in my lifetime. 

What would you do? 

 

[TonyT]

Can’t help I’m afraid, faced similar issues 20 years ago on a site, I sold for a profit so no drama, I felt like Inviting the traveller/gypsey community to stay for a while…

they would get planning…

[Faz]

Maybe try the PD route and appeal - if I recall correctly, the building needed to have been used for agriculture up to 2013 or so if that works for you.

[Jilly]

Wow, you poor thing, what a lot of money and no result. The neighbours must be scared of a housing estate..Would there be any hope of commercial use of the barns? Could you salvage something that way?

[Claire B]

21 minutes ago, Faz said:

Maybe try the PD route and appeal - if I recall correctly, the building needed to have been used for agriculture up to 2013 or so if that works for you.

That was what we tried first but we couldn't prove the buildings had been used for agriculture in the past. 

 

[Claire B]

10 minutes ago, Jilly said:

Wow, you poor thing, what a lot of money and no result. The neighbours must be scared of a housing estate..Would there be any hope of commercial use of the barns? Could you salvage something that way?

I asked my planning consultant if I'd get permission to use them for holiday lets but he said they'll use the same 'sustainability' argument, people would drive to get here. I guess that would be the case with anything. 

[Onoff]

The trouble is if you sold to travellers to pi$$ the neighbours off, the council would privately love it. If like here they have an obligation to provide sites for so many pitches.

 

The reality seems to be one of the caravan club fraternity buys the land, convinces the council it's a legitimate site for travellers then rents the places to immigrants at extortionate rates. Even sets their own leccy and bottled gas rates. Council don't give a sh!t as they've ticked box.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Onoff

[TonyT]

There is a traveller site a few miles away, farmer sold field to them,

bank holiday Friday hundreds of tonnes of hardcore delivered to site.

weekend site occupied.

bank holiday Monday retrospective planning submitted. Green field site.

burn at edge of site, MOD pipe under site

 

site was originally for 6 families with 2 caravans.local Lib Dem councillor voted for them to stay 

60 plus vehicles on site now.. it’s lovely….

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, TonyT said:

There is a traveller site a few miles away, farmer sold field to them,

bank holiday Friday hundreds of tonnes of hardcore delivered to site.

weekend site occupied.

bank holiday Monday retrospective planning submitted. Green field site.

burn at edge of site, MOD pipe under site

 

site was originally for 6 families with 2 caravans.local Lib Dem councillor voted for them to stay 

60 plus vehicles on site now.. it’s lovely….

 

Erm..are you sure you're not me? Like a parallel universe 

 

Our one was originally 9 month holiday lets. No market. Owner applied to build 2 detached houses. Neighbours kicked off (nimbys). Owner sold to travellers out of spite. As soon as there were families in with kids at the local school and they just ignored the 9 month rule. 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Claire B said:

I appealed and it's been dismissed.

What kind of appeal?, after 4 attempts at planning I appealed to the Secretary of State and they found in my favour saying the planners were not abiding by their own policies (and I have to drive to get anywhere!).

[Claire B]

36 minutes ago, joe90 said:

What kind of appeal?, after 4 attempts at planning I appealed to the Secretary of State and they found in my favour saying the planners were not abiding by their own policies (and I have to drive to get anywhere!).

A regular planing appeal. Next step would be Secretary if State but at great expense. Good to hear you have done this and won. 

[Claire B]

58 minutes ago, TonyT said:

There is a traveller site a few miles away, farmer sold field to them,

bank holiday Friday hundreds of tonnes of hardcore delivered to site.

weekend site occupied.

bank holiday Monday retrospective planning submitted. Green field site.

burn at edge of site, MOD pipe under site

 

site was originally for 6 families with 2 caravans.local Lib Dem councillor voted for them to stay 

60 plus vehicles on site now.. it’s lovely….

If I didn’t live in the village maybe I’d consider that but I do so I won’t. 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, Claire B said:

A regular planing appeal. Next step would be Secretary if State but at great expense. Good to hear you have done this and won. 

Why great expense?, I did mine myself at no cost!, I found the appeal easier than the planning application!, if you have already employed a planning consultant (which I did for the planning application) I simply copied their work where relevant.

[Claire B]

18 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Why great expense?, I did mine myself at no cost!, I found the appeal easier than the planning application!, if you have already employed a planning consultant (which I did for the planning application) I simply copied their work where relevant.

I employed a big planning consultant from the start (only because they had successfully got me planning for my own home 5 years prior). They have cost the bulk of the amount plus architects, structural surveys, landscape designer, ecological surveys, building repairs. Quote to challenge the appeal is 10k for solicitor, 2.5k for Counsel and 2.5k ish Sec of State costs if I lose. 

[joe90]

13 minutes ago, Claire B said:

2.5k ish Sec of State costs if I lose. 

Eh, not heard of that at all. https://www.gov.uk/appeal-planning-decision and I can not find any indication of a fee if you loose (I was certainly not aware of one if I lost)
 

“There’s no fee for appealing.”

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by joe90

[joe90]

13 minutes ago, Claire B said:

, 2.5k for Counsel

?

[bassanclan]

The cost of appealling an appeal is a lot!

It's only worth doing if you think the council breached their rules in the decision and then lied etc to the appeal.

 

Solicitor will always say you have a good chance of winning - ask them if they will do it no win no fee and they might think the chances are less good!

 

Far better that you go away and objectively solve the problems. For example contact previous owners of the land and pay them for their time to write affidavits about previous use of the land and stables.

[Claire B]

10 hours ago, joe90 said:

Eh, not heard of that at all. https://www.gov.uk/appeal-planning-decision and I can not find any indication of a fee if you loose (I was certainly not aware of one if I lost)
 

“There’s no fee for appealing.”

 

 

I’ve already appealed the planning decision and lost. These fees are to challenge the the appeal decision. 

[Jilly]

How about running it as a small farm (might have to do it for 10 years and then going for Prior Approval when the farm buildings become redundant ( I'm not sure of the qualifying details)? Or wait for some other change or relaxation in planning rules? You have a great asset, it seems a shame to concede defeat. I have friends who had a few acres and ran some geese and sheep, and made a case for having to stay on site to guard their stock and they were allowed a temporary building for this purpose. Some log cabins are very smart indeed and might suit your purposes for your son, if that's really all you wanted, plus laying the way for future changes. They have now finally been able to build a nice house. You could even use/rent a barn out to create a small shop to negate their complaint that car travel is needed? Campaign for improvement in local bus services?! I personally wouldn't give up completely, but might have a long term plan with very small incremental changes. They are not meant to refuse reasonable applications. 

[joe90]

30 minutes ago, Claire B said:

I’ve already appealed the planning decision and lost. These fees are to challenge the the appeal decision. 

Ah, right, I understand now, very tough call.

 

9 minutes ago, Jilly said:

How about running it as a small farm

Or ask the planners what they would accept and go from there.

[Claire B]

16 minutes ago, Jilly said:

How about running it as a small farm (might have to do it for 10 years and then going for Prior Approval when the farm buildings become redundant ( I'm not sure of the qualifying details)? Or wait for some other change or relaxation in planning rules? You have a great asset, it seems a shame to concede defeat. I have friends who had a few acres and ran some geese and sheep, and made a case for having to stay on site to guard their stock and they were allowed a temporary building for this purpose. Some log cabins are very smart indeed and might suit your purposes for your son, if that's really all you wanted, plus laying the way for future changes. They have now finally been able to build a nice house. You could even use/rent a barn out to create a small shop to negate their complaint that car travel is needed? Campaign for improvement in local bus services?! I personally wouldn't give up completely, but might have a long term plan with very small incremental changes. They are not meant to refuse reasonable applications. 

I was thinking along these lines, I think it's 4 years but will check. I'll have to get the exact requirements and see if it's workable. Growing food sounds like a good idea at the moment anyway. 

[Mr Punter]

You mentioned animal buildings.  If these were stables the class q approach is dead.  I think the current application is game over as well.

 

A 4 acre site with road access is still worth good money.  Can you get some industrial units on there?

 

Also just saw this https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/86615171#/?channel=COM_BUY

 

Near you and outline consent was won on appeal.  It may not be of use but you could read up on it if you have not already.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Mr Punter

[Faz]

7 hours ago, Claire B said:

I was thinking along these lines, I think it's 4 years but will check. I'll have to get the exact requirements and see if it's workable. Growing food sounds like a good idea at the moment anyway. 

Won't work without a time machine - the PD requires the agricultural use prior to 2013....

[Claire B]

7 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

You mentioned animal buildings.  If these were stables the class q approach is dead.

Not stables but not really 'agriculture' either but a private zoo a long time ago. 

[Claire B]

7 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Also just saw this https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/86615171#/?channel=COM_BUY

I have seen this, its just 5 mins from me. The location ticks all the sustainability boxes, on main road, footpath, streetlights, can walk to big village. Its also a different council to me.