Boiler Upgrade Scheme Grant - Actions to Take Now

[Dillsue]

4 hours ago, J1mbo said:

Heat pump plus solar (electric) is probably the best combination to reduce carbon footprint.

Prioritising insulation and draughtproofing will likely give a better reduction as well as save money. Without a clear energy saving plan no one will be able to size heat demand so oversize rads and HP will likely go in costing the OP money

[Green Power]

4 hours ago, IanR said:

 

Please do, you'll be one of the first on here to use the BUS, so it will be good info for us.

 

Since this is a rental property, while you are planning some level of renovation, it is worth targeting and EPC C or better. Not sure what part of the country you are in but both the UK and Scottish Governments have announced an intention to legislate a minimum EPC C for the private rental sector during the mid '20's. Possibly as early as 2026 for the UK and 2028 for Scotland.

I am in Northants, England. If anyone else here is in Northants  and interested in heat pumps let me know and I can share info about local installers by perhaps next month.

 

For the EPC, I checked a couple of weeks ago and  it looks like the minimum C rule you mentioned is proposed, not law yet. It also looks like 2025 for new tenancies but existing tenancies will have to be C by 2028. I will quite likely sell the house after the existing tenant moves out, so that rule likely won't matter to us.

 

However it would still be a bit better to sell the house as a B or a C, especially if I am trying to promote the eco credentials of the house.
 

[IanR]

14 minutes ago, Green Power said:

For the EPC, I checked a couple of weeks ago and  it looks like the minimum C rule you mentioned is proposed, not law yet. It also looks like 2025 for new tenancies but existing tenancies will have to be C by 2028.

 

I do wonder how they'd legislate/police mid-tenancy changes, I think it's more likely the requirement for EPC C will be for new Tenancies.

 

16 minutes ago, Green Power said:

so that rule likely won't matter to us.

 

Expect buy to lets that are EPC D or worse to start to be discounted once the government publicise the new legislation.

 

22 minutes ago, Green Power said:

However it would still be a bit better to sell the house as a B or a C, especially if I am trying to promote the eco credentials of the house.

 

Agreed

[Green Power]

I've been told today by an installer that they are NOT expecting everything about the new Boiler Upgrade Scheme to be announced and ready on 1st April. They are anticipating that you can register on 11th April and vouchers will be released 25th May. If this is correct, this means that anyone installing between now and 25th May will have to take a risk on the 5k should the government scheme fall apart or something else go wrong. I shall wait until at least 25th May to avoid any risk of that. However, the installer can invoice me the difference and get the 5k from the government, confirming what I posted on the previous page - (last post of March 19th).

 

2-3 heat pump installers I've contacted in/near Northants said that they do not install cavity wall insulation and do not partner with these companies to give a package. Therefore, I will need to do cavity wall insulation first and then get heat pump installed separately so I've reached out to two cavity wall insulation companies for quotes on that.

[SBMS]

21 hours ago, Green Power said:

I've been told today by an installer that they are NOT expecting everything about the new Boiler Upgrade Scheme to be announced and ready on 1st April. They are anticipating that you can register on 11th April and vouchers will be released 25th May. If this is correct, this means that anyone installing between now and 25th May will have to take a risk on the 5k should the government scheme fall apart or something else go wrong. I shall wait until at least 25th May to avoid any risk of that. However, the installer can invoice me the difference and get the 5k from the government, confirming what I posted on the previous page - (last post of March 19th).

 

2-3 heat pump installers I've contacted in/near Northants said that they do not install cavity wall insulation and do not partner with these companies to give a package. Therefore, I will need to do cavity wall insulation first and then get heat pump installed separately so I've reached out to two cavity wall insulation companies for quotes on that.

The scheme is confirmed and installations are eligible from 1st April. I assume this is to provide continuity from the RHI scheme which ends today.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-may-be-eligible-for-the-boiler-upgrade-scheme-from-april-2022

[Green Power]

Neither of the cavity wall insulation companies replied to my emails of Monday so I called them today. The first one said that they don't do that any more because it's a hassle with certain regulations. The other one didn't answer the phone. So not going well at this point. The only reason I mention this detail is I wonder if getting cavity wall insulation is tricky nationwide or not. If so, that's something to consider.

 

Those were the only two I found in Northants that had an OK website and OK reviews.

 

I think I will widen the search to include Leicester, Peterborough, Cambridge, Milton Keynes, Rugby and Coventry - anywhere within an hour or so of Wellingborough - let me know if anyone knows of any cavity wall suppliers they have experience with or heard anything about in any of those locations.

[Dillsue]

Google CIGA who provide CWI insurance and have a list of registered installers.

 

They are good to their word as we claimed on the guarantee a few years back and a survey and remedial work were all done in a few weeks without any fuss.

[Green Power]

Great, thanks a lot. There are no installers listed there as far as I can see that are within a 50 minute drive of Wellingborough.

 

However I found through the site 14 CIGA CWI installers 1 - 2 hours from Wellingborough.

 

I've emailed all of them and offered to pay the petrol if they come out and do a quote. I reckon that should be enough to get 3-5 of them to reply and say they'll do it and then I'll check their websites and reviews and go on to quote with the best 2-3 of them. At least that's the plan.

[Green Power]

According to one insulation company and my lettings agent, I can't get cavity wall insulation in this house because it is not suitable for this type of house. They say that the concrete walls likely have no cavity or one that is too small and that the use of timber inside the construction likely makes cavity wall insulation problematic due to risk of damp issues.

I've contacted the assessor of my EPC who recommended cavity wall insulation to ask them to remove the recommendation from the EPC.

In theory I could then get every other type of insulation and then get the heat pump.

However cavity wall insulation is considered the most important one so that does call in to question the suitability of the project a bit.

I will look into external cladding insulation but I'm not too convinced about that option, but I will do further research on it. let me know if anyone has any viewpoint on this.

[ReedRichards]

Whatever you use to heat your house, adding insulation will reduce your running costs.  Obviously at some point the cost of the extra insulation will not be justified by the benefit you achieve but it doesn't sound as if you are at that point yet.  You don't need to have a well-insulated house to have a heat pump.  The bigger the heat requirement the bigger the heat pump will need to be and that adds expense but it's a myth that you have to have a well-insulated house in order to have a heat pump. 

[Green Power]

With heat pumps being slower to heat up, a poorly insulated house is harder to heat up than a well insulated one though, right. Of course, you can avoid this issue by turning the heating on remotely before you get home and leaving it on a lot when you are at home.

 

But that still leaves the question I've heard that a heat pump works let efficiently in a poorly insulated house, would you agree with that. Meaning that when due to poor insulation you require x% more heat that will require >x% more electricity because the COP is lower. Is that fair?

 

Just did a search online for external cladding insulation but looks like £100/square meter is a figure on a few websites, £5-£15,000 for most houses, probably £5,000-£10,000 for mine which is smaller than the average house. Also not convinced that external insulation would work well with my house, the external part of the house already has a kind of cladding (but not one that would retain much heat) there are some kind of tiles on the upper part and some kind of white plasticky covering on the bottom part. Would be a tricky job I suspect and would leave the house looking the odd one out on the street vs the others.

[Dillsue]

6 hours ago, Green Power said:

But that still leaves the question I've heard that a heat pump works let efficiently in a poorly insulated house, would you agree with that. 

Thats a misnomer. If a house has a 15kw heating demand, any 15kw heat source will heat it. The confusion lies in that gas boilers have traditionally been massively oversized so when a gas boiler fires up its got loads of excess capacity to get radiators up to temperature quickly.

 

Heat pumps loose their efficiency when they have to produce hotter water than optimum, such as when trying to heat a hot water tank or heating a house via undersized radiators.

 

Heat pumps are going to need a big mindset change in the way that heating systems are used. Particularly for rental properties theres a need to get the system designed, installed and set properly by someone who knows what they are doing. Therell also be a need to spend time explaining to home owners/tenants how to best operate the heating.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Dillsue

[Kevm]

7 hours ago, Green Power said:

 

 

But that still leaves the question I've heard that a heat pump works let efficiently in a poorly insulated house, would you agree with that. Meaning that when due to poor insulation you require x% more heat that will require >x% more electricity because the COP is lower. Is that fair?

 

 

 

No,that's not true. The COP has nothing directly to do with insulation or draughts.   A poorly insulated/draughty house has a higher heat demand. If you meet the heat demand with a suitably sized heat pump and emitters with a reasonable flow temp your COP will be good. If you undersize your heat pump and/or require high flow temps it won't be.  These last two sentences apply whether you're heating a passivhaus or the Albert Hall.  Of course a good COP isn't everything and the more you can reduce demand the better. 

 

There are plenty of houses with solid walls running heat pumps successfully.   

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Kevm

[joth]

37 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

If a house has a 15kw heating demand, any 15kw heat source will heat it.

This is slightly misleading. Better to say ..."any 15kW heat source, matched with appropriately sized emitters, will heat it."

 

You can't replace a 15kW boiler with a 15kW ASHP and expect to get the same output without also checking the rads can still deliver the heat demand from the potentially much lower flow temp.

 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, joth said:

ASHP and expect to get the same output without also checking the rads can still deliver the heat demand from the potentially much lower flow temp

This is the crux of all heating systems. Old night storage heaters work well, if sized right and used correctly.

Open fires can heat a place as well. Crap efficiency though.

[Green Power]

This is a little confusing. Let me know if this is accurate:

 

Imagine a 5kW heat pump in a house with triple glazing and loft and cavity wall insulation. It's working fine. The COP is 3.5.

 

Now let's say we remove the insulation and triple glazing and replace with single glazing.

 

A higher water temperature is now required. The efficiency reduces. The COP is now less than 3.5 to achieve the same air temperature in the house. It therefore now takes greater than x% more money to provide the additional x% heat energy required.

 

But now let's say we replace the 5kW heat pump with an more powerful heat pump (e.g. 8kW) and add new or larger radiators. The COP would now increase. For example, it might to back to 3.5.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Green Power

[ReedRichards]

The CoP depends critically on the temperature of the water leaving the heat pump.  So if removing insulation and triple glazing but increasing the radiator surface area and the size of the heat pump gets you back to the same leaving water temperature as you had before then your CoP will be the same.  But your house will cost more to heat because you have taken out all that insulation.  And for most efficient operation of the heat pump, the leaving water temperature will vary according to the outside temperature ("Weather Compensation").

 

So yes, what you wrote is accurate.

 

  

[Dillsue]

7 hours ago, Green Power said:

But now let's say we replace the 5kW heat pump with an more powerful heat pump (e.g. 8kW) and add new or larger radiators. The COP would now increase. For example, it might to back to 3.5.

That statement is correct but what youre missing is that a bigger power input will be required to drive the larger ASHP.....COP remains the same but power input and power output both increase in the same proportion to maintain the COP.

 

Put the insulation and triple glazing back in and youre back to a 5kw pump still with the same COP but lower power input,  lower cost and lower emissions

 

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

5kw

Or more correctly a 5 kW pump.

[Green Power]

Thanks for your help everyone. I think I get it now.

[Green Power]

On 31/03/2022 at 11:59, Green Power said:

Neither of the cavity wall insulation companies replied to my emails of Monday so I called them today. The first one said that they don't do that any more because it's a hassle with certain regulations. The other one didn't answer the phone. So not going well at this point. The only reason I mention this detail is I wonder if getting cavity wall insulation is tricky nationwide or not. If so, that's something to consider.

 

Those were the only two I found in Northants that had an OK website and OK reviews.

 

I did also find out about the Trustmark website later, and there are some more local installers on there that aren´t on CIGA, but I never got around to checking out online or contacting them.

 

However the one that didn´t answer the phone that I mentioned above did respond when I emailed them.

 

He then went to the property and confirmed as others said that front and back walls can´t have cavity wall insulation. He drilled a hole in the end gable wall and found it already has cavity wall insulation. Therefore, the same person has agreed to do me a new EPC for me (since the person that did the old one wasn´t able to help with removing the cavity wall insulation recommendation for me) and this time will not recommend cavity wall insulation. With this CWI recommendation removed, I should be eligible for the grant hopefully.

 

I am also going to get him to put loft insulation in for me.

 

A heat pump installer that I am quoting with told me today that heat pumps are like "gold dust" at the moment and there is a 3-month lead time in some cases.

I also heard from them that "applications for grants opens from 23 May". This is slightly different to what I was previously told elsewhere which was "you can register on 11th April and vouchers will be released 25th May." I expect the 23rd May date is more correct as it looks like it is from an official leaflet which I attach.

bus-installer-leaflet.pdf

[JohnMo]

I read today from the contractor recieving approval for voucher there is a 3 month time limit to get work completed. Otherwise the voucher is lost. They have to reapply against set number of vouchers being offered per year.

 

https://www.heatgeek.com/the-boiler-upgrade-scheme-what-you-need-to-know/

 

 

[Green Power]

Great article above actually, a bit of a pro heat pump bias in the article, but still good.

[Green Power]

Initial quotes (all include a heat pump, hot water tank and installation) are £7.6k without radiators, £11.8k including radiators, and £11.5-12.5k (guide price) without radiators. One last one offered me £10k without radiators - when I explained that was a bit high vs my budget they suggested changing from Mitsubishi to LG with integrated Cylinder and buffer tank within and this could bring the price down to £9k, let me know about any thoughts on the LG?

Mitsubishi is the most common heat pump in the quotes, with one quoting on Daikin.

No-one has been to the property yet so these quotes may adjust.

It looks like it became a seller's market in April, due to the new grant initiative and perhaps the Ukraine war. I can see this from both my experience, as well as a few news reports online. This perhaps applies to all green energy including solar. Logically it makes sense given the limited supply for companies to inflate their price or at least refuse to negotiate whereas before they might have. Therefore, of the £5k grant, in reality the company probably effectively pockets maybe £1-2k and you only really get £3-4k in a sense.

I don't think this is a bad thing. It makes green energy a more profitable business, can fund expansion, and encourage others to enter. At a total guess, I reckon you might get prices £1k cheaper in 1-2 years or £2k cheaper in 3-5 years, as the market matures and grows to meet the new demand.

Given the current market, I could potentially see that for some people heat pumps would work great because you might just happen to have a reliable local installer with good reviews and low price, while others might happen to find no-one in their area available at a reasonable price.

I had one company initially say they would quote only later reply to say that I was out of their coverage area now as they had redefined it. A few replied to me only after a few days or a week or two.

I'd be interested in any opinions on whether heat pumps work well with radiators. Obviously, it depends, but what is the more common case, works with existing radiators or requires new radiators?

[HughF]

Why don’t you do your own heat loss and rad sizing? I’d absolutely not trust a grant money hoovering, new van driving, ex DG salesman to get that right.

 

LG units are cheap, seem to have a nice controller, but have slightly iffy looking specs at higher output temps from what I’ve figured out. The 5, 7 and 9 only push their rated figures at A7/W35, the high flow temp numbers are a bit rubbish, all three delivering the same output iirc.

 

Midea look decent but they won’t sell direct, and their data needs derating a bit also.

New rads are always a good idea, moving up to type 22s allows you to drop the flow temp down to efficient levels. It’s a dead easy swap size for size, complete no brainer not to change up to them from 21s or 11s.