Trapezium Door - Any Inventive Solutions?

[ThePoplars]

I hope somebody on the forum might be able to help me.

 

We have a trapezium window on our bedroom (approx 1.5m at widest point) and are considering creating a balcony that we access through the opening, however, it's a trapezium shape so it makes things a bit (lot) more complicated.

 

 

 

The options we have considered (and discounted):

 

1. Inward opening door - not enough space for door to swing
2. Outward opening door hanging from angled side of opening - probably puts too much strain on hinges (but happy to be corrected on that?)
3. Outward opening door hanging from straight side of opening - will require more space on the balcony to allow the door to swing out.
4. Creating a narrow rectangular door within the trapezoid - will spoil the look of the window with the extra vertical lines
5. Sliding pocket doors - this is a possibility but we would have to create a pocket and does anybody know a company who makes them in custom shapes?
6. A custom Roof Terrace door (like the one made by Velux) - does anybody know a company who would be likely to make something like that?

 

Or, the ideal world solution that we have no idea whether it exists or not:

 

• A door that pushes out then slides on runners fixed along the front of the house - has anybody ever seen something like this?

 

Any help or alternative solutions gratefully received.

[Vijay]

What about top hung, using pistons (like on a car boot) for support?

[ThePoplars]

Now that's an inventive solution @Vijay.  It's a bit like the top of the Velux Roof Terrace door idea.  Just a very quick google makes it look like there aren't top hung windows that would be as wide and tall as necessary.  I know that it would have to be custom made, but I wonder if that might indicate it would be too heavy to be supported at the size it needs to be.  One for discussion though, thanks!

[Onoff]

Akin to a sliding van door this is.

 

 

[ThePoplars]

That is exactly what I'm looking for @Onoff (although I had it in my head it was an aeroplane door ) - however, googling "patio door like a sliding van door" hasn't miraculously presented me with what I'm thinking it needs to be, but it is a step in the right direction.  

 

Has anybody come across such a thing in their research?

[Grosey]

 

 

i have these doors, I know it's not exactly what you need and an off the shelf solution it is not, but they do lift and slide such as the van door you are suggesting. Maybe worth speaking to Velfac to see if they could help you? Idealcombi also do a pretty much identical door. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Grosey

[Ferdinand]

@ThePoplars How tall is it?

 

How wide is the opening at the top?

 

Is the full size of that frame on the right required?

 

Is it currently upvc or wood?

 

Is there a limit to the budget  ?

 

Answer these and I can do a fairly thought out answer.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Mr Punter]

Maybe easier to create a new opening to the left.  What is the grey cladding btw?

[Simplysimon]

i don't understand why option #3 is discounted, door width at the bottom is the same, therefore same swing and space. making a timber door that shape is no problem.

[Nickfromwales]

59 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

i don't understand why option #3 is discounted, door width at the bottom is the same, therefore same swing and space. making a timber door that shape is no problem.

Yup, by far the best, easiest option. 

Creating a gull-wing door that opens upwards would be lunacy. First big gust of wind, bye bye door. Not enough width on the top for the physics to work on that one imo. 

[ThePoplars]

@Grosey - so the mechanism exists, that's great.  Definitely worth further exploration, thank you!

 

@Ferdinand, replies below and a new photo to give a better understanding :-D

 

14 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

@ThePoplars How tall is it? 2250mm

 

How wide is the opening at the top? 450mm (and 1300mm at the bottom)

 

Is the full size of that frame on the right required? The "frame" on the right is actually a dormer which is slightly set back - the wall of the house runs parallel  to the slant of the window. 

 

Is it currently upvc or wood? It's currently upvc - but we are considering replacing the french doors beneath with grey aluminium.

 

Is there a limit to the budget  ?  At the moment we're wanting to add it to the design to get through planning but may not actually build.  If we were to build, it would have to cost less than £10k for the full balcony (metal pillars from the ground floor, metal grill for balcony floor, glass surround, and this door)

 

Answer these and I can do a fairly thought out answer.  Thank you so much :-D 

 

 

@Mr Punter We had considered it, but it's a south facing wall and the room gets very hot so I should have added it as a discounted option.  The panels are Trespa I believe (previous owners had them fitted, mentioned the name once when we were buying, and didn't leave any paperwork).

 

@Simplysimon We discounted option 3 because to get the door to swing out, we would have to have to allow space to arc around and back against the grey panel wall so there couldn't be any furniture in that area.  It would make the balcony much bigger than we need it to be.  Also, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clear, we would want most of it to be glazed.  

 

@Nickfromwales Yes, we have discounted the gullwing.  Although I really do like the concept of the Velux Roof Terrace door with the top opening like a gullwing because we often have foxes in the garden feeding next to the patio and it would be great to get a photo of them that wasn't through glass.

 

Thanks everyone for your contribution - much appreciated.

[Mr Punter]

The most practical solution may be to have a small triangular fixed light in the bottom right corner and a narrow door to the left.  This would mean that you do not need so much space inside / outside.

[Nickfromwales]

8 minutes ago, ThePoplars said:

We discounted option 3 because to get the door to swing out, we would have to have to allow space to arc around and back against the grey panel wall so there couldn't be any furniture in that area.  It would make the balcony much bigger than we need it to be.  Also, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clear, we would want most of it to be glazed.

That's easy. Make the bottom section shorter and straight by leaving the bottom right 'triangle' as part of the frame . 

 

?

You can have far less door that way too. 

[ThePoplars]

@Mr Punter and @Nickfromwales Splitting the space up like that does make sense on paper, but I don't like the look of it .  We had been thinking of putting an opening window above the door to cut down on the size and give some through ventilation.

[Ferdinand]

On 05/05/2017 at 15:47, ThePoplars said:

1. Inward opening door - not enough space for door to swing
2. Outward opening door hanging from angled side of opening - probably puts too much strain on hinges (but happy to be corrected on that?)
3. Outward opening door hanging from straight side of opening - will require more space on the balcony to allow the door to swing out.
4. Creating a narrow rectangular door within the trapezoid - will spoil the look of the window with the extra vertical lines
5. Sliding pocket doors - this is a possibility but we would have to create a pocket and does anybody know a company who makes them in custom shapes?
6. A custom Roof Terrace door (like the one made by Velux) - does anybody know a company who would be likely to make something like that?

 

Or, the ideal world solution that we have no idea whether it exists or not:

 

• A door that pushes out then slides on runners fixed along the front of the house - has anybody ever seen something like this?

 

@ThePoplarsBrief responses to your suggested options.

 

1 - Rejected

 

2 - A door on a sloping hinge is a nonstarter imo, since no BCO (and you will have BCOs as a balcony is involved) will touch it. It will weigh a hundredweight - 50-60kg, and when open the corner will be 4ft out and 3ft in the air. You will need assisted opening (hydraulic or power or winch) and it will have to be failsafe and industrial strength, since that lot collapsing back could cripple someone.

 

3 - Rejected. Also UPVC would not imo be adequate for a door that size and you may need to do a lot to your wall structure to support such a weight.

 

4 - I think a modified 4 is one of your serious options - with enlarged opening, a normal door and a fixed light on the right.

 

5 - You could get a custom door from your local UPVC glazing company, a local chippie, or someone like Crittall (remember those steel 1920s-30s windows?), who are still going - or any other number of companies.  If you have someone like Crittall your 10k budget for the whole shebang will not last very long .

 

6 - No comment. I think there is a very good reason why Velux only make them the size of a single doors width, and give you 2 or 3 if you want it wider.

 

7 - Out and Slide or Top Hung and Glide door. This could be done, using standard components when you find them.  eg Barrier Components supply kits for patio doors and pocket doors and other things.

http://www.barrier-components.co.uk/

But that would commit you to a 4m wide balcony.

 

As to advice, you will need a Structural Engineer and maybe an Architect on board anyway, so find one early and ask them to use their knowledge.

 

I think you need to consider more than just the window, and are perhaps focusing too tightly on that one element. Perhaps muse on how it fits into the facade, what overall look and feel you want (eg idiosyncratic, modern lived-in like Aldington *, or Shiny Shiny We Are Obsessive like some Grand Designs, or something else), and what else you are going to do, and then focus back on the window and what it needs to look like in the overall picture. 

 

If you don't look at the slightly larger picture I think this project could expand sideways of its own volition, and you may end up doing that anyway.

 

To me at the moment that window looks uncomfortable. It cannot decide whether it is part of the upper half of the facade, because it does not match the cladding in colour and with that horribly untidy set of truncated panels to bodge the grid into the edge of the window frame; or whether it is a unit with the patio doors, but the sides of the opening are not in line and nor are the glazing divisions.

 

I have a few design thoughts which I will put in a post later with the aim of provoking your thinking.

 

And I wonder what is under that cladding. Why did they put cladding on just the upstairs .. to hide something? That is often why people render or clad things.

 

Ferdinand

 

* I listened to a presentation by him last week, and I am still reflecting on it.

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

If you know an inventive local fabricator, then a double hinged arrangement like an aircraft door, hinged on the vertical side and with the bars between the hinges wide enough to allow the door to swing back against the wall when open (just like an aircraft door) would work.  Fastening it would mean having two sets of latches, perhaps with two handles to make things cheaper, that latch and pull in to the seals both long sides (again, very much like an aircraft door).

 

Worth having a close look at how aircraft doors work.  They have a very neat geometry and are designed to be very airtight, as well as strong enough to withstand the forces from cabin pressurisation.  They are also designed to open right out of the way and lie flat to the aircraft outer skin, so they aren't in the way of the airstair.

 

Any aluminium or uPVC door/window fabricator could make the door itself, using standard extrusions and latches.  The special bit would be the cranked double hinge bars, but these could be made to just bolt to the outside of the door and the wall alongside, and not look too out of place.  If it were me, then I'd make up the cranked double hinges from stainless, using standard hinges at either end.  Not a big job, maybe half a day's work at most to fabricate and polish two stainless cranks and fit the hinges.

[Onoff]

I think you need to think out of the box:

 

 

Just hope your laminate flooring is better than Klemen's!

[Jeremy Harris]

An alternative might be a pantograph hinge, as used in some marine applications:

http://www.freemanmarine.com/Doors1400_PHinge.htm

http://www.tecnoinox.eu/eng/page2/page8/page8.html

 

There seem to be lots of variations of these, including commercial ones used on buses and some taxis.  This video shows how they work:

 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by JSHarris

[Ferdinand]

If you just want to do the window as is, here are three more types of door which would work fine ... 2 and 3 are perhaps much more straightforward than anything suggested so far. Both could be fabricated in steel or hardwood, and done in hardwood by a local skilled chippy with DG units from a local company (I would go laminated to be anti-shatter just in case). If you are sensible you would have a vertical glazing bar where the fold or pivot occurs for robustness and stiffness, and have 2 DG units - or do very careful calcs.

 

The company I linked upthread may have the kits. Phone up and ask, then if they say no ask who does have them.

 

1 - Concertina. Bad Idea.

2 - Offset pivot - basically the hinge is part way across the door. Make larger doors more manageable. One issue is that your resulting opening is only 18". My solution to that would be to enlarge the opening to line up with the one below. Work really well paired as narrow French doors too.

3 - Custom bifold. You can do offset bifolds, where the track leaves the door more outside than inside or vice-versa. Again, completely normal.

 

But I still say that you need to think carefully about the whole scheme first not the window.

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Examples of pivot doors.

 

Article in HB&R about pivot front doors:

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/pivot-doors/

 

12 Examples leading to patios:

http://www.stevewilliamskitchens.co.uk/an-alternative-to-the-sliding-door-12-pivot-doors-leading-to-patios/

 

Domestic British at the house of Peter Aldington. This has been there since the 1960s.

Photo credit: Turn End Trust

http://www.turnend.org.uk/charitable_trust/

 

Frank Lloyd-Wright at Biltmore Hotel

 

 

I am sure that Frank Lloyd Wright used them in domestic settings in the 1930s and 1940s, and finding some in Arts and Crafts or historical settings would not surprise.

 

F

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

We had a wide aluminium pivot door fitted to a new build lab as the outer door into a draught lobby.  Both water and wind blew around the edges and we had the main contractor back snagging it around half a dozen times until in the end it was replaced with a pair of asymmetric aluminium double doors.  The problem was that it was near-impossible to get the door seals to work, especially in the region around the pivot.  I think they work well indoors, but I'd personally not want to use one as an external door.

[Onoff]

Imo @Ferdinand's option 3, the custom bi-fold does it for me:

 

+ adding the vertical member matches the ground floor door. Yes you lose a bit of light (live with it or move the door entirely )

 

+ once open you'll lose some of door across the width of the wall and it won't impede so much into the width of the balcony.

 

- would you end up with a bit of a triangular trip hazard sticking out?

 

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

We had a wide aluminium pivot door fitted to a new build lab as the outer door into a draught lobby.  Both water and wind blew around the edges and we had the main contractor back snagging it around half a dozen times until in the end it was replaced with a pair of asymmetric aluminium double doors.  The problem was that it was near-impossible to get the door seals to work, especially in the region around the pivot.  I think they work well indoors, but I'd personally not want to use one as an external door.

 

From the HB&R article I linked:

 

Quote

• Due to the nature of this type of door, weather seals can be a little trickier than with standard doors, as it is hard to get a continuous seal along the top and bottom. However, you can get doors with drop-down seals that are activated when the door closes. Still, it’s wise to fit some form of porch over the door, particularly in exposed locations.

 

F

 

[Ferdinand]

12 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Imo @Ferdinand's option 3, the custom bi-fold does it for me:

 

+ adding the vertical member matches the ground floor door. Yes you lose a bit of light (live with it or move the door entirely )

 

+ once open you'll lose some of door across the width of the wall and it won't impede so much into the width of the balcony.

 

- would you end up with a bit of a triangular trip hazard sticking out?

 

 

All true.

 

The window is so stonkingly high that the 6" or so sticking out of the folded door should not be material - you will get enough back in the angled portion. I would make one out of corrugated cardboard or insulation sheet to check clearances.

 

If hinged on the axis suggested with no changes to the opening it will be roughly 450mm one way and then 1050 the other way which leaves a 600 wide triangle at lower height which could bark your shins.

 

That could be managed by eg:

 

- adding 650 to the opening so it would line up,

- having a narrow balcony (projecting Juliet) balcony if desired so that the triangle was flush against the side of the balcony and it is impossible to get past it unless you are in the prcess of defenestration in which case you would probably want it there

- arranging the fold such that the projection is on the inside then creating a design feature eg built in wardrobe against which the trip hazard would be flush

- have a third leaf so the triangular trip hazard folds back on itself.

 

Lots of options .

 

Or making the opening a bit wider and fitting a normal door and triangular fixed window :-).

Ferdinand

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ThePoplars]

Well, there are quite a few more options than we had come up with ourselves!  Thank you @Ferdinand @JSHarris @Onoff  I'll share the info with our architect as our first conversation (about adding the balcony to the drawings for our extension to go for planning permission) was on Friday and he couldn't come up with a supplier of something akin to a van door on the spot and had gone away to ponder.  These extra ideas may allow him to come up with the best solution - even if it's not something that we will be able to build immediately.

 

As for the cladding @Ferdinand, the house is about 50 years old and was originally brick and a different coloured render from the one photograph of the house in its original format that I have seen.  The second owners (the people before us) were into "design" (over substance at times!) had it fitted.  Sometimes their vision didn't quite follow through...